Outer wing guns on Hurricane IIbs

[atvd1020]

I plan to build a Hurricane IIb from the Far East/Burma Campaign, either Z5659 or AP894 flown by W.J. Storey or BE171 by J.F. Barrick, as their markings can be made up from aftermarket sheets and generic serial number/roundel decal sheets. The Osprey book on Hurricane Aces 1941-45 lists all three as Hurricane IIbs, but then has Z5659 on the cover (and the colour profile later on) portrayed with only eight guns. Is this a mistake on the artist's part, or were the outer 4 guns sometimes removed to improve performance like the outboard cannon of some IIcs or (so I read somewhere) the wing guns of some Buffalos?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

[Graham Boak]

Yes, the outer wing guns were often removed. It might be difficult to find the photographs to prove it in individual cases. It was not just that the weight would make the aircraft perform (accelerate, climb) better, the handling would also be improved by increasing the roll rate and making the aircraft less sluggish in control response. Plus, of course, the additional firepower wasn't needed against the comparatively light-structured Japanese types. Large Japanese bombers were rarely seen in the theatre.

[Edgar]

Any help? They had awful trouble with handling/rearming the outer guns, needing modifications; eventually they seem to have just given up.

[atvd1020]

Thanks for the information, Graham and Edgar! Since the kit I have is the Airfix Club Hurricane, it's just a matter of not using the provided decals.

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Question is though, would the wing panels have stayed the same as a standard Mk IIb? Also would they have just put fabric over the gun ports or would something else have been done?

thanks

Mike

[gingerbob]

Seems likely that they'd have just (fabric) patched over the ports and chutes.

bob

[Edgar]

Normal thing with redundant "orifices" was a double thickness of fabric patches, but probably not red, maybe even camouflage painted over.

Edgar.

[Graham Boak]

It isn't clear when the removal of the outer pairs began, but it may not have been in early 1942. I've just seen a photo of a desert Hurricane Mk.IIc with only two cannon, dated mid 1942, so the general principle was in practice by then. It seems to be a fairly obvious step once the agility of the Japanese fighters was accepted. The Japanese ace Kato was highly impressed by the Hurricane's firepower, but I don't recall whether that was a reference to eight or twelve. The aircraft in Malaya/Sumatra were still carrying 12, if my memory of Terence Kelly's writings is correct.

[atvd1020]

OK, in that case WK.C may have still had the 12 guns? A photograph of WK.C being refueled in the Osprey book dated 'early 1942' seems to show the outer wing panels open for arming:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Tp0fBZX-5-oC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=will+storey+WK.C+hurricane&source=bl&ots=AwkG_F7cf5&sig=adCSu653C3yrChag2ZlG6NK1emM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MeKfU46TKMSwOdH9gfAO&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=will storey WK.C hurricane&f=false

(link to a Google books search of the book in question, you can see the illustrations and photo in question)

Edited June 17, 2014 by atvd1020

[Nick Millman]

Haven't found anything specific on armament for 135 Sqn IIBs in Burma yet but this might be of interest:-

Sqn Ldr V K Jacobs, 232(P) Sqn in Singapore (my emphasis):-

"They were the latest - IIBs, with six Browning .303 machine guns in each wing, the last two in the outer sections of the wing. Whilst busy complaining about the lack of manoeuvrability these additional guns caused, no-one at that stage seems to have taken the simple option of removing them. The lethal capabilities of the standard eight guns were beyond question. Sadly, as many pilots found to their sorrow and pain, nothing could outmanoeuvre the agile Jap(anese) fighters. On the plus side when the missiles from those eight Brownings connected, the Japanese were easy victims, being lightly armoured with no pilot protection."

From 226 Gp History (232 and 258 Sqns, Sumatra):-

"It was considered that eight Browning guns per Hurricane were sufficient for the unarmoured Japanese aircraft, and that the removal of four from the twelve-gun aircraft would give additional manoeuvrability and more rapid climbing. The four outside Brownings were therefore removed and 50 per cent of these were used for spares and 50 per cent for ground defence."

Which might have translated into a later theatre convention...

The Japanese must at least have been aware of the 12 gun capability as they mention it in respect of the three IIBs captured and flown at Palembang. Whether they re-armed them like that I don't know but they planned to use them for strafing airfields and transport. A Japanese photo of a captured IIB at Palembang still in RAF markings appears to show the outer guns in situ.

FWIW there is a description from Bill Storey of Z5659 having "light blue-grey" under surfaces. Whether that means Medium Sea Grey or Sky Blue is moot, but given the time frame the latter is probably more likely. Codes WK-C were 36in Medium Sea Grey and serial black. From the photo of it being refuelled and re-armed it probably still had the 12 gun armament. AP894 (built by Austin Motors) had a maroon painted spinner (ex-Desert?) and he also flew a third Hurricane BN163 with a black painted spinner.

I'll keep looking though as there is lots more contemporaneous stuff to go through.

Nick

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

So, from a modelling point of view, if you wanted to model a Mk IIb with no outer guns, you would simply 'plug' the outer gun ports but leave the panels alone?

thanks

Mike

[Graham Boak]

Yes. There's no reason to reskin an aircraft just because you've taken some guns out.

I found a reference in Shores' new Med'n air war history which I thought might be relevant: August 1942. TacR Hurricanes were suffering heavy losses so it was decided to issue more Mk.IIBs to them because of the shortage of Mk.IIAs. This does say they were keeping 12-gun Mk.IIs for the fighter units, and (implicitly) not removing them. However most Mk.IIBs by this time would have the option of bomb carriers fitted, and the "fighter" Hurricane units were predominantly being used for ground support duties by then. Removing the outer guns from the fighter bombers would have restricted their armament to six guns.

[atvd1020]

Nick-Many thanks for the background information on the outer wing guns and the information on Storey's Hurricane, I will keep it in mind when I build it (and other Hurricane IIbs when I can get my hands on them).

Graham-what kind of modifications would be needed for a TacR (tactical recon?) Hurricane?

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Yes. There's no reason to reskin an aircraft just because you've taken some guns out.

I found a reference in Shores' new Med'n air war history which I thought might be relevant: August 1942. TacR Hurricanes were suffering heavy losses so it was decided to issue more Mk.IIBs to them because of the shortage of Mk.IIAs. This does say they were keeping 12-gun Mk.IIs for the fighter units, and (implicitly) not removing them. However most Mk.IIBs by this time would have the option of bomb carriers fitted, and the "fighter" Hurricane units were predominantly being used for ground support duties by then. Removing the outer guns from the fighter bombers would have restricted their armament to six guns.

I thought not but it's best to check first. I would like to do an SEAC Mk IIb when I can find the decals for one!

thanks

Mike

[atvd1020]

A related question to the outer wing guns- since their barrels protrude slightly from the wings, were they covered with red canvas patches as the other wing guns?

[Troy Smith]

A related question to the outer wing guns- since their barrels protrude slightly from the wings, were they covered with red canvas patches as the other wing guns?

yes, just about visible here, notice how the barrel still protrudes.

there are better pics out there. Try the IWM

HTH

T

[Nick Millman]

A couple more snippets re early SEAC Hurricanes. From Flt Lt A G Donahue DFC's 'Last Flight from Singapore' (Macmillan & Co, 1944) relating to 175 and 300 Sqn attacks on Japanese river traffic in Sumatra:-

"If the enemy were in open boats we should be able to wreak terrible havoc among them with our eight- and twelve-machine-gun Hurricanes" (p.137) and

"Other airplanes followed with their attacks, each in turn approaching one of the boats and raising a mountain of spray around it with his bullets. There were 160 or 240 bullets per second in each of these clouds of spray, depending on whether it was an eight- or twelve-gun Hurricane." (p.140)

"There was the abrupt shattering roar from the guns in my wings and then the eight ghostly white tracers snaking out ahead..." (p.141)

From this it is presumed there was a mix of armament and Donahue was flying a Hurricane with eight guns. Just before this incident on 14 Feb 42 he writes of 175 Sqn receiving some new Hurricanes to make a full 12 available, of his own squadron (300) having 8 available and of the two squadrons pooling their aircraft so that all pilots were able to fly.

Elsewhere in another account there is a reference to "old" Trop Is having to be flown but I need to dig that out.

Nick

[Graham Boak]

atdv1020: Some TacR Hurricanes had a small window in the side of the fuselage just aft and above the trailing edge of the wing. I don't know if this was standard: I suspect that many of the early missions were simply flown with the Mk.1 eyeball and pencil for notes on maps.

Sorry for the delay in commenting - my machine was playing up when I saw your comment initially and I couldn't answer.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Graham Boak

[atvd1020]

atdv1020: Some TacR Hurricanes had a small window in the side of the fuselage just aft and above the trailing edge of the wing. I don't know if this was standard: I suspect that many of the early missions were simply flown with the Mk.1 eyeball and pencil for notes on maps.

Sorry for the delay in commenting - my machine was playing up when I saw your comment initially and I couldn't answer.

No problem, it seems like it could be a simple modification to make (when I get a hold of another Hurricane IIb).