Curious Red Top on Lightning

[rossm]

Saw this on fleabay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RAF-EE-Lightning-F3-XR716-2T-Sqn-226-OCU-Coltishall-1974-Aviation-Aircraft-/351088583377?pt=UK_Collectables_Aeronautica_MJ&hash=item51be82a2d1

and wondered why the Red Top has black and yellow stripes - presumably signifies 'live' or 'drill' or some other variety?

[Enzo the Magnificent]

It looks like a protective cover for the seeker head. On a Sidewinder that would be known as a "noddy cap".

[Selwyn]

Saw this on fleabay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RAF-EE-Lightning-F3-XR716-2T-Sqn-226-OCU-Coltishall-1974-Aviation-Aircraft-/351088583377?pt=UK_Collectables_Aeronautica_MJ&hash=item51be82a2d1

and wondered why the Red Top has black and yellow stripes - presumably signifies 'live' or 'drill' or some other variety?

Strange picture.

The stripes are red and yellow if you look carefully, which suggest some sort of seeker cover. However it looks cone shaped which is wrong shape for a red top which has a glass dome seeker. Perhaps some type of Firestreak cover being used on red top?

Also the jet is running and usually the covers should have been taken off by then. (on start).

Selwyn

[AnonymousAA72]

Strange picture.

Also the jet is running and usually the covers should have been taken off by then. (on start).

Selwyn

You would certainly have thought so, however see this photo of XP696 also of 2T OCU.........

www.aviation-picture-hanger.co.uk/xp696.html

These Firestreak type covers seem to be quite common on Redtops

Edited June 7, 2014 by Bill Clark

[Gary West]

For the 1974 display season, the now infamous XP767 from 226 OCU (2T) wore these as part of her display regalia - I would hazard a guess that this could be the back up display a/c therefore, lacking the White spine & tail

[AnonymousAA72]

For the 1974 display season, the now infamous XP767 from 226 OCU (2T) wore these as part of her display regalia - I would hazard a guess that this could be the back up display a/c therefore, lacking the White spine & tail

Watcha Gary, I've just been trawling through the Vertical Reality site (what better ways are there to spend a Saturday morning!?) These 'caps' seem quite common on Red Tops.....and certainly on 2T OCU aircraft.....

http://www.aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/xr750.html

[spike7451]

I've asked on our RAF Armourer's FB page as the's a few old Lightning crusties there who should know...

Got a lot us us stumped...But the view from the Frightning experts is it.s not a real or drill missile,but a mock up missile which was locally made, or it's a Red top experimental development Blue dolpin or blue jay. Semi active homing radar.. would explain the nose and longitudinal sensors on the side.

Edited June 9, 2014 by spike7451

[Paul J]

I suspect purely for display purposes as Gary says above.

[spike7451]

I suspect purely for display purposes as Gary says above.

You suspect wrong,,,,

http://www.aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/xp696.html

Backs up what my mate said above,who was a SNEC Armourer on Lightnings before he went to the dark side (Commissioned)

[bzn20]

Vertical Reality.............. What a great name!

[keefr22]

You suspect wrong,,,,

http://www.aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/xp696.html

Backs up what my mate said above,who was a SNEC Armourer on Lightnings before he went to the dark side (Commissioned)

But the caption to that says;

"15/2/66 A&AEE, Red Top Trials. 5/6/67 60MU"

then;

"White fin/spine for 74 aero display champion Flt Lt Peter Chapman."

which suggests that pic of it was taken 7 years after it was used as a Red Top trials jet?

[Gary West]

No way that's got anything to do with experimental - just trawled through hundreds of F3 Images and this are unique to the OCU (2T) - as I said in my first post, this is no more than further sexing up an already sexy Lady!

[AnonymousAA72]

For the 1974 display season, the now infamous XP767 from 226 OCU (2T) wore these as part of her display regalia - I would hazard a guess that this could be the back up display a/c therefore, lacking the White spine & tail

Gary's answer is correct. Sorry Merv., these aren't 'mock up missiles locally made', that makes no sense whatsoever. Certainly not in an economic nor in a logistical way . Its well known that display Lightning's often carried inert/acquisition missiles to help retain their flying characteristic's. Take a good long look at pictures of 226 OCU/2T sqn Lightnings ( Vertical Reality, Spotters Gutersloh, ABPics and in books - anyone remember them?) , you'll soon see that 'Red Tops' are carried almost exclusively on the units F3's and T5's. There are a couple of instances that I've seen in pic's where the Red Tops do indeed have these black and yellow concentric hoops. Richard L.Ward in his 'Lightning Squadrons of the RAF' says this in captions accompanying two separate photo's......"The best known of all 2T squadron Lightnings was F3 XP696.....it featured a white fin and dorsal spine..Extra touches of colour not normally seen on the noses of the Red Tops were black and yellow concentric rings." and......""F3 XR716 .....this photograph shows to advantage the units markings, and again the decorated Red Tops are carried...". The two photo's were taken a year apart, the former in 1974 and the latter in 1973, yet both have yellow and black rings.

But what MAY be confusing matters is that SOME Red Tops do indeed have Firestreak type covers, there is plenty of photographic evidence showing aircraft airborne with these.(see below) The yellow and black ringed tips to the Red Tops appear to be applied directly to the missile. Looking at the photo of XP716 I'd say that the black has been applied with a less than steady hand!!

And one also has to consider that 226 OCU had an important job to do, an an Operational Conversion Unit - they surely wouldn't have had to resort to knocking up their own 'locally made Red Tops'! Would they? Was 226 OCU a weapons conversion unit? I'll need to do some more digging, but If they weren't, any weapons carried would not need to be 'Live' nor 'Experimental'.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Bill Clark

[sloegin57]

Not just 226 OCU had them fitted, although the first two I ever saw and photographed were on T.Mk.5's XS449 and XS452 at the Lakenheath Open House 6/6/70, but both 111 Sqdn's F.Mk.3's, including XP754/R, and at least two 23 Sqdn F.Mk.6's, including XS933/J, had them fitted during the early 70's although none had "rings' painted on and they appeared to be dummy Firestreak noses scabbed on to Red Top bodies.

Fitting finned dummy missiles to display Lightning aircraft, the F.Mk.3 was by far the preferred marque, was deliberate as it improved the nose authority of the thing and made it a bit more "impressive" but also much more positive to control.

Dennis