Basilisk Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) I consider making a model of this aircraft as "Model Alliance" decals are available. But this decals and the profiles in the "On Target Spitfire Mk I to VI" show this Spitfire with a smaller than normal red centre in the fuselage roundel and I wonder if this is correct? I assume the profiles are based on the picture of N3290 in "The Spitfire Story" by Alfred Price dated 16 May 1940 taken at Le Bourget which shows the red centre in the fuselage roundel indeed much smaller. But is it really smaller? The picture is of poor quality and the white is bleeding into the blue and red of the roundel as the white on the fin flash is also noticeable wider than the blue and red stripe (but not so on the profile and decals)! The same aircraft crashed in France on the 23 of May and the picture of the crashed aircraft does show a larger red centre in the fuselage roundel. (aircrewremembered.com) Just an observation. What is the opinion of some of the Spitfire experts here?Cheers, Peter Edited June 5, 2014 by Basilisk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 There were an awful lot of non-standard markings around at that point, and an awful lot of hurried changes going on. Have a look at post 9 in this thread for a clearer shot of (probably) the second aircraft in your pic above: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/41949-jumping-on-the-spitfire-bandwagon/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I wouldn't trust and use Model Alliance as a reliable source.That said, I believe there was a profile (from Mike Keep perhaps) in an older issue of Scale Aircraft Modelling. Jens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Andy Saunders' book Spitfire on the restoration of P9374 GR.J has no suggestion of non-standard red centres to the roundel on 92 Sq.'s aircraft. There were some Spitfires build with non-standard roundel centres, but I don't recall the details. They are probably in the Ducimus booklet, if anyone has it handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 There were some Spitfires which had 15" roundels, with a 5" centre, though photos are rare. If units, in March 1940, when ordered to revert to r/w/b roundels, simply enlarged the white, and added another circle of blue, leaving the red at its original 5", it could explain the anomaly. And the Camouflage & Markings book does have a note of the odd roundel, complete with a photo. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrzeM Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Speaking about this particular photo, planes in the background are obviously out of focus, this can give illusion of "smaller" red circles (or "wider" white bands). It is normal phenomenon in photography. Also white band on the fin-flash looks apparently wider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul178 Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Thread drift(ish) anyone got a copy of this months Flypast. The front cover shows two spits(both data plate rebuilds) with different camouflage schemes. Which is correct or is it a splosh some green over the dark earth at random? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Top one is in the "A" scheme; bottom one is in the mirror "B" scheme; both are correct (depending on the serials) for the early part of the war. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Thread drift(ish) anyone got a copy of this months Flypast. The front cover shows two spits(both data plate rebuilds) with different camouflage schemes. Which is correct or is it a splosh some green over the dark earth at random? NO! there is a quite specific scheme, what perhaps is shows are the A and B schemes, which are mirror images of each other. a quick search gets this showing both the real deal is this, the factory camo layout, note the precise measurements nothing random about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul178 Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Thankyou Troy, Splosh it on was a bit tongue in cheek. I have always painted my spits in the colours shown in the layout shown in the diagram. That is what confused me. Any idea why the mirror image though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Thankyou Troy, Splosh it on was a bit tongue in cheek. I have always painted my spits in the colours shown in the layout shown in the diagram. That is what confused me. Any idea why the mirror image though? Sorry Paul humour does not always come across, and, it's not the silliest assertions I've seen on a modelling site! I think the mirror schemes were to provide variation, but they were dropped in 1940 or 1941, I presume as they were not needed and simplified productions [see pinned rubber mask thread at top of page] ...while typing I thought, lets check before i start talking out my hat... I googled "raf camouflage mirror a b schemes" 1st is http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-markings-camouflage/raf-b-pattern-spitfire-camo-33013.html Edgar again , post #13 The camouflage had nothing to do with the aircraft in flight; it was solely to break up the shape, when on the ground (propellers were painted black for the same reason.) The variation in the patterns was to avoid the possibility of a regimented appearance, if the aircraft were lined up next to each other. Once it was realised that aircraft should be further dispersed, even having their own individual pens, the different patterns became unnecessary, and were discontinued 26-4-41, before Ocean Grey replaced the Dark Earth. 3rd hit is this http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/74729-ab-camouflage-scheme-and-serial-question/ They were supposed to alternate A/B with odd/even serials, but there are many variations. there is also C/D, where the colours reversed. final hint, it's much easier to search Britmodeller via google, just add in Britmodeller into you search term, I frequently use it to find old posts, though it easier if you know that there is a post on a subject. cheers T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidelvy Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Any idea why the mirror image though? As Troy has said, variation. The point of a disruptive pattern is to mask the shape of what is being seen. However, a row of aircraft in the same, regular scheme might undermine this by showing a repeating pattern, which might attract the eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Speaking about this particular photo, planes in the background are obviously out of focus, this can give illusion of "smaller" red circles (or "wider" white bands). It is normal phenomenon in photography. Also white band on the fin-flash looks apparently wider. Take a look at Post #4 in this thread which shows GR-S, the aircraft behind the subject aircraft of this thread. Clearly, the fuselage roundel proportions are "off". Whether that's a small red centre or a larger-than-usual white ring is open to debate but it certainly is unusual. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 That's the same pic I linked to above! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Yep...just reinforcing the fact that tonal seepage in the photo of GR-U doesn't fully explain the odd proportions of the fuselage roundels applied to 92 Sqn's Spits at this time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Further thread drifting. Here is a well known photo of a Vb originally delivered in Dark Earth/Dark Green uppers which has had a partial reprint. Marked up in the 'A' scheme, the colours were reversed for reasons unknown (to me at least). There are many interesting things to note about this repaint but which go beyond the remit of this thread. Net photo Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody37 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 So, perhaps as a thread drift, did this camouflage really work to make aircraft difficult to see on the ground? At height, I'd be surprised if the reverse schemes were even noticeable, at low level, the profile of the aircraft would be clearly evident (based on films I've seen of aircraft being attacked during such low level runs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Well, it makes them a lot harder to see than if they're all painted bright silver with heraldic patterns across the fuselage and wings, pre-war style. Especially if they are all lined up (which of course they should not be during wartime) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 The camouflage scheme had multiple purposes: the colours were chosen to reduce the contrast with the background. The patterns were designed to break up the straight lines, edges of the aircraft and the "chevrons" on the wings point in different directions. So you have concealment, deception and confusion together. I don't suppose anyone ever thought they made the aircraft invisible - but every little helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifti34 Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 (edited) I have a question about GR@U. This photo of Bob Tuck(center) with Bob Holland and Alan Wright in front of U. Wright normally flew S, so was this aircraft flown by Tuck or Holland? Or were they all just near this aircraft and someone just snapped the Edited April 7, 2021 by Nifti34 Photo upload 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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