Polish paint colors

[spaceshiprepairman]

I have a question concerning colors of paint used by the Lublin aircraft manufacturer in Poland during WW2.

What were the colors used as undercoat?

Were they an interior green, as used by the British, or were they more of a chromate-based paint, like the US used?

Or were they something else entirely?

[GrzeM]

Interior of the most widely used Lublin planes (reconaissance Lublin R XIII) was most probably silver-grey.

This is confirmed by Mirage 1/48 kit instruction, pretty well researched by Piotr Mrozowski.
Scan (with English text) is available here:

http://www.mojehobby.pl/products/LUBLIN-R.XIII-D-LIAISON-PLANE.html

Information about painting is on the last page.

Greenish paints like British interior green or US chromate green were not used in pre-1939 Poland.

Edited May 21, 2014 by GrzeM

[spaceshiprepairman]

Ok, thanks.

[Guest]

Since we are on the topic of Polish aircraft colors, what is the best way to achieve the Olive Brown color of Polish aircraft?

Cheers

[KRK4m]

There was NO standard Olive Brown used for the PAF aircraft. It's something like Nakajima and Mitsubishi colours in Japan - there were two volume manufacturers of the aircraft for the PAF, namely PZL and PWS, and each of them had his own variation on the Olive Brown theme. During the restoration of PZL P.11c and PWS-26 in Cracow museum we have found small fragments of original paint and I can surely say, that PZL "olive" was darker and slightly more greenish than PWS one. Generally the PZL paint is very close to the USAAC Olive Drab, while one used by the PWS company is almost undistinguishable from the RAF Dark Earth. Moreover it's to be remebered, that PWS has started their volume activity with licence production of Potez biplanes that - following French tradition - were painted Khaki overall (i.e. including undersurfaces). Contrary to that all PZL planes had their undersurfaces painted light bluish grey (silmilar to RLM 76 Hellgrau).

[Guest]

Thanks, I have a PZL 11c that is ready to go, your information was quite helpful.

Cheers

[Marcel]

As far as I know Pactra Paints have some Polish Khaki and Pale Blue in their range. Can’t comment their accuracy though.

[Steven Eisenman]

Polish Khaki:

antoni

Senior Member

Join Date: Jun 2007

Posts: 235

Polish Khaki for Dummies

First I’ll let you into a little secret. As I take you on this journey you will discover that Polish Khaki and Olive Drab are practically the same. The German Brown Violet is also very similar and is often used as the main component to mix Polish Khaki.

Many khaki type colours are based on a mixture of Lamp Black and Yellow Ochre. Add Iron Oxide (Red Ochre) and it becomes browner. Other pigments such as Chromium Oxide can be added to modify the colour. Chinese Blue is sometimes used to darken it. Polish Khaki, so I am told, is based on Prussian Blue and Yellow Ochre. This combination gives Olive Green so there were probably other pigments in the mix as well. It had a reputation for fading quickly to a brownish colour. Perhaps the Prussian Blue had something to do with this. It was this fading that led to the introduction of a new version of khaki in the late 1930s. These two versions of khaki are often referred to as early and late. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that the late version was greener than the early. Perhaps it just looked greener compared to the faded early khaki.

Early Khaki.

Restoration work on Krakow’s PZL P.11c revealed the colours faded khaki FS30118 and FS 30108/FS20122 in hidden areas. This faded khaki matches Humbrol H142 – Field Drab. The second colour found in the protected areas, and which I assume to be closer to the original colour when newly applied, can be obtained by adding 8% H163 (green).to H142. Now RAF Dark Earth
is usually described as FS30118 and some people do use Dark Earth for Polish Khaki but it must be remembered that the FS system is not a continuous scale of colours and FS30118 is the nearest match to H142. When seen together Field Drab and Dark Earth are in fact very close, Field Drab being slightly greener.

Unfortunately, H142 is no longer manufactured by Humbrol and there is no exact match for it that I know of in any other manufacture’s range. (Actually this is not quite true but I will come to that at the end.) Beware of comparison charts as often the equivalents are only nearest matches, not exact ones. However, all is not lost. H155 Olive Drab is a darker shade of Field Drab and adding some white to it will produce a close enough match to H142 to satisfy most people. You could probably get away with using H155 as I don’t think anyone would notice as I would not be able to tell the difference unless I had the two together to compare.

Late Khaki.

There was much anecdotal evidence that the khaki used in the late 1930s on aircraft such as the PZL P.37 Łoś was different from that used earlier, in particular greener. This has provoked much debate over the years as to whether the colour was really different or if it just looked greener because it had no faded and so on. The most up-to-date opinions of Polish historians are found in the instructions of Mirage’s P.23 Karaś kit.


"Preserved fragments of PZL P23s seem to prove the theory that the PZL factory at first used a khaki paint composed of FS20122 and FS30108. Later, the PZL factory changed the khaki colour to a greener shade - FS 34087. The colour used earlier most likely bleached quickly and in doing so lost its camouflaging properties and (probably) this is why the recipe for mixing the pigments in the paint was changed. The new khaki colour was most likely used for painting export aircraft and new types such as the PZL P37 Los or the PZL P43. This seems to confirm the colour photographs taken by the Germans at Okęcie in 1939. We managed to get hold of a fragment of paint from a PZL P37B Los and on the basis of this sample; we selected a mixture of Vallejo paints. The new khaki colour was most likely used on the late-series Karas B and most likely also on refurbished Karas As, and other aircraft repainted as the need arose. As of this moment, we've not been able to discover what colour the interior of the Karas was painted. No information on this subject has survived; we've not been able to find any artefacts. Studying photos, we can make out that the interior is painted in some dark colour, and neither silver nor light blue. The fragments of the P.23 interior exhibited from time to time at the Aviation Museum in Kraków were painted a dark greyish blue. Summing up, the prototypes and early production examples were probably painted silver. Later production machines were probably painted dark greyish-blue or khaki green. The 'shelves' between crew members were painted khaki green. The most likely variant: walls painted dark greyish-blue, the floor black. All equipment, such as the camera, radio, bomb sight, were left in the colours that they were when they left the factories from which they originally came. Stencils (lit. 'utilisation lettering') (on the decal sheet nos. 20, 21, 22, 23) were probably not painted on Karaś. As; we've left them on the sheet as they might well have been applied when the aircraft were being refurbished. An example might be the inscription "NIE DEPTAC" (do not tread) which can be seen on a/c no. 44.30."

Mirage is the Polish agent for Vallejo and now only give mixtures from this range. Out of curiosity I obtained them to see what they produced. The colours, black, chestnut brown, yellow, and two greens, are not what I would expect to produce khaki. One of the greens is like hair dye, leaving the bristles of my paint brush green. I got what I expected, three slightly different shades of chocolate brown with a horrible dirty bottle green cast. When I put them through an airbrush the first layer paint appeared dark green turning to dark brown as the thickness of paint built up. The overspray was also a dirty bottle green. Nothing like the olive green of the illustrations on the instruction sheet which I assume is meant to represent the sort of colour you want. For a while I thought that these mixtures might have been made from a different range of paints and simply translated to the nearest Vallejo equivalents. Frankly I think you would be wasting your time and your money if you buy these paints for this purpose. (No complaints about the paint, it’s the colours that are at fault.) There are easier and cheaper ways to get the right colour.

FS 34087. is Olive Drab. Mirage now have a pack of Vallejo paints for mixing the PZL colours

Internetowy sklep i portal modelarski modelarstwo, modele do sklejania, warhammer: WCM - Warszawskie Centrum Modelarskie.

In it they include Vallejo 70887/093 for Late Khaki in place of the mix they gave in the model kit instructions. This matches exactly Humbrol 155 Olive Drab although Vallejo call it Brown Violet. Humbrol’s Olive Drab is of the brown type and looks to my eyes, a little too much on the brown side, not what someone would describe as green or greenish. I would prefer to use a greener version of Olive Drab such as White Ensign’s ACUS15 Olive Drab 41. This has more of a green colour to it and looks more like the olive colour of the instruction sheet illustrations.

Polish Light Blue.

This is a distinct blue/grey colour something like a paler version of Humbrol 145 Medium Grey. Sometimes RLM 65 has been recommended as a substitute. It is too blue and too bright. Polish Light Blue is more like RLM 76. The Russian AMT-17 is much closer than RLM 65 but a little darker. I could not find anything in off the self that matches it exactly. The plastic top of Tamiya XF23 is very close. That’s the colour of the plastic cap not the contents. The paint is darker and bluer. The nearest Humbrol colour is H127 US Ghost Gray. I was able to get an almost exact match by adding some H89 Middle Blue. I had to make the mix slightly lighter as it dries a darker shade. I should think that there are many other combinations of grey and blue that would give correct colour.

Interior Blue/Grey.

For the blue/grey colour used on the interior Mirage recommends Vallejo 005 which is USN Intermediate Blue, Humbrol H144 can be substituted.
The Good News.

Accurately matched authentic Polish Colours are available. They are acrylics made by Agama but are exclusive to the Jadar Shop in Warsaw.

Agama - JadarHobby Shop Sklep Modelarski

P4 is Polish Khaki and matches H142. It also matches the khaki paint on pieces of Karaś wreckage as well as the old paint uncovered during the P.11c restoration.

P5 is Polish Light Blue. There are some other colours as well used on the Lublins and the peculiar greenish grey used on naval aircraft. The also have Czech, French and Italian colours in their range.

SEE ALSO:

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/pzl37lk_1.htm

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1275150979/Polish+PZL+interior+colors-

Edited May 23, 2014 by Steven Eisenman

[Guest]

Thanks for that Steven, between you and Nick we are well informed on colors. The PZL in the Krakow air museum definitely looks very much olive drab, but at certain angles it tends to look a little more brownish, thusly the mistaken assumption of "olive brown"? It is a similar situation to the RN F4K Phantom during the mid 60's, depending on the angle the grey could look very blue. I will go with the Polish Khaki and the blue I will trust to luck using the information provided. Supposedly I had a relative from Krakow who flew these things in WWII who now is a retired doctor, at least according to my cousin who spent 6 months in Poland trying to research family history back in 1979. I wish I could have gone, it would have been interesting to find out what he did after the defeat of Poland, but my cousin didn't go that far in the short conversation with this relative. You can't trust stuff like this to a Perdue University man who has only a PhD in engineering. Anyway, thanks for your help on this topic.

Cheers

[HAAFPhot]

Fascinating and thanks for the info. A Polish friend of mine bought me the IBG PZL37A as a Xmas present which triggered a few interests. Firstly the detail and quality of the IBG kits is superb, but it also got me taking a much closer look at the Polish aircraft (and its pilots) which again, is fascinating. The plan is to build the lot (IBG in any event) so any info on paint accuracy is appreciated. I use predominantly Gunze lacquer or MRP so some mixing or cross referencing is likely. Thanks again. CBA

[Ray_W]

26 minutes ago, HAAFPhot said:

I use predominantly Gunze lacquer or MRP so some mixing or cross referencing is likely.

 

It has been a while since the original post. It is worth checking out a newer entrant - Hataka Hobby Paints - a Polish company now also making an excellent range of paints. I used their Orange Line, which are lacquer solvent based paints similar to Mr Color and MRP, and was very happy with the result. I used their Polish Set:

 

https://www.hataka-hobby.com/HTK-CS01-Polish-Air-Force-Paint-Set

 

For this Bulgarian build. 

 

 

 

Ray

[HAAFPhot]

19 hours ago, Ray_W said:

 

It has been a while since the original post. It is worth checking out a newer entrant - Hataka Hobby Paints - a Polish company now also making an excellent range of paints. I used their Orange Line, which are lacquer solvent based paints similar to Mr Color and MRP, and was very happy with the result. I used their Polish Set:

 

https://www.hataka-hobby.com/HTK-CS01-Polish-Air-Force-Paint-Set

 

For this Bulgarian build. 

 

 

 

Ray

Cheers Ray. I wasn’t aware they did solvent based lacquer. Appreciated chap. Ordered a set as I have a PZL11a to build and a Los A bis, although I believe the latter were a more OG colour. Looks like this works well with gunze thinners which is handy. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by HAAFPhot
Afterthought

[SprueMan]

Holy thread revival Batman!

While we are here, what is the best option to paint a PZL-37?

I understand that a Tamiya AS-22 color would be a good match for the upper surface, but the lower is supposed to be a grayish silver solor (?) A pure silver would be not be ok, I think, but a gray would not be metalic...?

[GrzeM]

Note: research about Polish pre-WWII camouflages was visibly improved in recent years, due to more professional attitude towards archeological samples (there are a very few remains of Polish aeroplanes preserved in museums, more have been found in the soil during several excavations). One of the important results of this research was re-painting of the only preserved PZL P.11c in Polish Aviation Museum in Krakow (earlier plane was in wrong colour applied in '80s during restoration, which replaced earlier, non-original paint used by Germans during the WWII).

 

'80s version (non original):

 

Present colours:

Colours of this PZL P.11c are confirmed by professional examination made before restoration. This PZL P.11c left the factory in mid-'30s in earlier, more into Olive Drab paint, but in late '30s was repainted during overhaul in this more brownish colour, which was commonly used then. PZL 37 Łoś was produced later (about the time when this P.11c was overhauled) and so was factory painted already in this brownish shade.

While this is possible that the early production Łos (and the prototypes) were painted in "medium Polish khaki" - close to Olive Drab, for sure the later ones were in "late Polish khaki", which was brown, similar to the British Dark Earth or even more into chocolate shade.

Lower surfaces are metallic grey, called "silver grey" or dull aluminium.

There is quite good quality colour photo made by Germans on Warszawa-Okęcie airfield (PZL factory) showing it clearly. Please note that the photo has slightly too strong reddish hue, but otherwise is very credible.

Simlar or identical late khaki colour is beautifully preserved on the PZL 23 Karaś rudder in the WWII Museum in Gdańsk.

Feel free to ask me if you have more questions.

Best!

G.

Edited September 30, 2022 by GrzeM

[SprueMan]

Thank you!

That is good to know. So, no light blue on those aircraft

[HAAFPhot]

25 minutes ago, SprueMan said:

Thank you!

That is good to know. So, no light blue on those aircraft

Bugger...apparently not🙄 good job I intend building the lot😆. Guessing the PZL37A Bis that did the tour in civil reg was early so more like the olive drab then as it was fairly early on? Sadly my 37a has a pale blue underside but I went with what info I had....still a great little model though❤️

Edited September 30, 2022 by HAAFPhot
Swearing....

[HAAFPhot]

13 hours ago, GrzeM said:

Note: research about Polish pre-WWII camouflages was visibly improved in recent years, due to more professional attitude towards archeological samples (there are a very few remains of Polish aeroplanes preserved in museums, more have been found in the soil during several excavations). One of the important results of this research was re-painting of the only preserved PZL P.11c in Polish Aviation Museum in Krakow (earlier plane was in wrong colour applied in '80s during restoration, which replaced earlier, non-original paint used by Germans during the WWII).

 

'80s version (non original):

 

Present colours:

Colours of this PZL P.11c are confirmed by professional examination made before restoration. This PZL P.11c left the factory in mid-'30s in earlier, more into Olive Drab paint, but in late '30s was repainted during overhaul in this more brownish colour, which was commonly used then. PZL 37 Łoś was produced later (about the time when this P.11c was overhauled) and so was factory painted already in this brownish shade.

While this is possible that the early production Łos (and the prototypes) were painted in "medium Polish khaki" - close to Olive Drab, for sure the later ones were in "late Polish khaki", which was brown, similar to the British Dark Earth or even more into chocolate shade.

Lower surfaces are metallic grey, called "silver grey" or dull aluminium.

There is quite good quality colour photo made by Germans on Warszawa-Okęcie airfield (PZL factory) showing it clearly. Please note that the photo has slightly too strong reddish hue, but otherwise is very credible.

Simlar or identical late khaki colour is beautifully preserved on the PZL 23 Karaś rudder in the WWII Museum in Gdańsk.

Feel free to ask me if you have more questions.

Best!

G.

Brilliant and many thanks. I may well take you up

on that. Do you know anything about the configuration of the nose gun mounting without gun fitted on the PZL37A? I want to model the Bis they took to...Belgrade? Which was often in armed. 

[HAAFPhot]

On 29/09/2022 at 13:29, SprueMan said:

Holy thread revival Batman!

While we are here, what is the best option to paint a PZL-37?

I understand that a Tamiya AS-22 color would be a good match for the upper surface, but the lower is supposed to be a grayish silver solor (?) A pure silver would be not be ok, I think, but a gray would not be metalic...?

Bloody tough job but someone has to do it😆. 

[GrzeM]

1 hour ago, HAAFPhot said:

Brilliant and many thanks. I may well take you up

on that. Do you know anything about the configuration of the nose gun mounting without gun fitted on the PZL37A? I want to model the Bis they took to...Belgrade? Which was often in armed. 

Difficult question. I'll look for that. But I don't guarantee any serious result.

 

Edit:

Got two photos from Belgrade:

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by GrzeM

[HAAFPhot]

10 hours ago, GrzeM said:

Difficult question. I'll look for that. But I don't guarantee any serious result.

 

Edit:

Got two photos from Belgrade:

 

That’s great. I think I have these images in a scanned book that an associate of mine sourced for me. He has a Polish wife and visits the Krakow museum regularly where I believe he met the chap who sent them. My Los A must almost certainly be wrong but the route leading to that is interesting and they are great little models from IBG. 

[GrzeM]

Hi, there are two more photos of the Belgrade PZL 37 Łoś in this thread - very bottom:

https://pwm.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82383&sid=ce123a30a3c2fa998dd921f9488d980d&start=540

[HAAFPhot]

On 27/10/2022 at 07:37, GrzeM said:

Hi, there are two more photos of the Belgrade PZL 37 Łoś in this thread - very bottom:

https://pwm.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82383&sid=ce123a30a3c2fa998dd921f9488d980d&start=540

Thanks chap. A bit late I know but thank you all the same👍