Luftwaffe Fighter Interior Colour

[krazyivan1942]

I'm not a Luftwaffe builder, so not sure of correct colour.

Building the Tamiya Bf 109E-4/7 Trop as 2/JG27 North Africa.

What would be the interior colour of the cockpit.

Some say RLM 02 others RLM 66. I know they are both interior colours, but which one.

Which Humbrol paint would be the closest colours.

Paul

[darson]

My rule of thumb solution for Luftwaffe cockpit colors is simply RLM02 up to the end of the Battle of Britain and RLM66 beyond that. I'm sure there are purists who will shot me down in flames but it's my rule of thumb.

As to the Humbrol colors, just do a search on this site, I'm sure it will pull up the answers you seek.

Cheers

[Duncan B]

I went with RLM 66 when I did mine. I have read that some of the 109's in Africa had a mix of the two colours with the RLM 66 on the framing and rear bulkhead and RLM 02 inside.

Duncan B

[richdlc]

ask on the luftwaffe experten message board...

failing that, there are plenty of reference books that will help - Luftwaffe camouflage & markings 1933-45 volumes 1 and 2, and German Cockpit Interiors by Merrick, The Monogram Guide to Painting German Aircraft by Hitchcock, Luftwaffe Colours by Ullmann etc etc etc

[Steven Eisenman]

from a reliablel researcher:

Sorry but I have to disagree with you regarding the E-4/7 series as the E-7 was nothing more than an E-4 plumbed to carry a drop tank and thus the norm was for an 02 cockpit. Yes, there are instances of E-4/7s with 66 finished cockpits but these are in the minority in period photos where the cockpit interior is visible. Incidentally, a number of ‘E-7s’ were already entering service before the end of October 1940 and although plumbed for and actively carrying drop tanks were still simply referred to as E-4s in not only unit strength returns and manufacturer’s documents but also by the manufacturers plate on the aircraft.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, a 66 finished cockpit on an E was more relevant to the sub-contractor who built the original airframe than to any order or directive regarding protective finishes. 02 remained the standard cockpit finish applied up to very early in the production of the F-2 when Messerschmitt introduced the application of the 74/75/76 colours on the production line along with 66 cockpits during the spring of 1941. However, you are correct in your observation that some recycled E airframes received 66 as a cockpit finish but again, this was more generally dependant upon which sub-contractor carried out the work. This is evident from photos of recycled E airframes converted to the Jabo role for service on the Eastern front in 1941/42 and just to confuse the issue even more, even included a number issued from Messerschmitt in October 1941.

I also can’t fully agree with you about your suggestion of an early ‘transition period’ as this did not really occur as such until circa the spring of 1941. As explained above regarding early F-2 production (which began in January 1942), the camo & colour changes for the 109F had actually began some seven months in advance of the promulgation of L.Dv.521/1 issued on 8 Nov 1941 which officially specified (for fighters) to switch to the use of 66 in cockpit areas and 74/75/76 camouflage.

Cheers
Dave [Wadman]

Response to Current thinking re 109 cockpit colour in Battle of Britain

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave,

By and large the cockpit interior colour for the 109E was 02 and remained so until early in the F production.

However, having said this, photos taken of several 109s brought down over the UK where the cockpit interiors are visible show them to be of a very dark finish suggesting the use of 66.

I have several interior shots of E-3s showing this dark colour but equally, I have even more showing what is obviously 02. To confuse the issue further there are photos of downed E-3s, -4s and 7s that clearly show that while the base cockpit colour is 02, the cockpit sills (ledges)and sloped cockpit metalwork aft of the pilot are in 66 while other photos show these areas in 02.

Undisputably and as proven by photographs, a number of 109Es had cockpits finished in 66 but this appears to tie in more with those airframes built by Fiesler, Arado etc than with Messerschmitt built airframes.

I'm currently working on an article for posting here on the Lair which will consist of a listing of each 109E brought down over the UK that will contain the Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report, the contents of each pilot interrogation and other relevant material.

Additionally, I will also include the manufacturer of the airframe and where known and based on photographic evidence, any visible cockpit colours.

At the present point, although the information thus far does suggest that the use of 66 predominated in non-Messerschmitt built airframes, this could well change as I work through my documents and numerous Messerschmitt & 109E files.

As for Teumer's 109E at the RAF Museum, the cockpit has retained its original 02 finish.

HTH

Dave W.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Steven Eisenman

[Clinton78]

A rather large piece of a Bf109E-4/N built by Messerschmitt AG around September 1940 survives and the interior is painted what can only be described as being black. It would be nice and a lot safer to be able to label it RLM66 but having seen it with my own eyes about 3 inches away from my face there is absolutely zero hint of a grey or even an extremely dark grey evident.

[spitfire]

Definately not an expert but I use Humbrol 32 for RLM 66, and there is a new Humbrol series of RLM colour, RLM 02 is listed as H240

Cheers

Dennis

[Clinton78]

This one here at Lashenden Museum:

Also described by Paul Lucas in his 'Enigmatic Emils' (Model Aircraft Monthly Sept 2004) article as being "The basic colour is black although the sill surrounding the manufacturer's plate is grey"... So it's not only myself that thought it looked black and not RLM66 grey. Quite why black was used in this instance I do not know?

Edited May 10, 2014 by Clinton78

[krazyivan1942]

As I have said that I'm not a Luftwaffe builder, but there are so many variations and options to when & what colour was used.

Looking at the Eduard and Hasegawa instructions for their Bf 109E-4/7 Trop they recommend GSI H-70, where Airfix are recommending Humbrol 31 and Tamiya is XF22:1+XF49:1.

I was undecided between H-70 or 31, I went with the Humbrol colour as its my paint preference. Have put some paint down and it has a green ting to it.

What are people thoughts on the recommended colour by Airfix or should I have gone for the Gunze paint.

[Clinton78]

Unless you have a photo of the interior of the specific Bf109E you want to model and or until better understandings of the where's, why's, and how's of the application of anything other than RLM02 are published then you can't really go wrong painting the interior in RLM02. To be honest unless a specific period document exists or is discovered explaining what factories/repair shops applied what colour to the interiors and at what point they started doing so then because of the lack of any interior being visible in 99% of photos of Bf109Es then I cant see how a truly rock solid and reliable study can be made of the treatment of the interiors of the Bf109E. But hats off to anyone who is trying.

[Stonar]

A cautionary note.

What is the history of that artefact. In what conditions has it spent the last seventy years? Such things almost invariably have an effect on paints and varnishes.

I believe that the section has also undergone some conservation involving the application of some kind of varnish. Any modeller will tell you that this can effect the perception of the underlying colours.

I don't know whether that is black or some version of RLM 66 and unless we find someone who painted it, nobody does. It may well LOOK black now, but that doesn't mean it was originally black. I'm just saying that you need to be careful looking at artefacts and deducing how they might have looked many, many years ago.

Cheers

Steve

[Clinton78]

I appreciate that many years have passed since this paint was new and that an application of clear varnish has been applied over the entire relic. Without knowing much about the science of how certain paints may fade/change I can't comment reliably but it just seems strange how a grey paint can change to pitch black, so black in fact that any other description of the colour other than black would be grossly inaccurate. I wonder if any members with a more solid scientific understanding can advise on how paint or in particular the RLM paints may have changed over the years and whether it is possible for a grey to change to pitch black? I fail to see the point of the RLM creating a version of RLM66 that was so black that they could have quite simply used RLM22 instead?

[Duncan B]

That does look like patches of RLM02 to the left of the diagonal, one large patch appears to have overspray of black on it!

What is the history of this relic? I suppose it is possible that it could have been a one off experiment painted at unit level but that is pure speculation on my part. (I once owned a car that was bright red but when I removed the door panel to fit a new window winder found that inside the door panel it was blue. I guess a lot had happened to that car after it had left the factory).

Duncan B

[Clinton78]

Indeed Duncan. The RLM02 areas had the aircraft been complete would be a sealed interior area inside the fuselage behind the seat and bulkhead likely to have been given the usual coat of RLM02 primer at the factory whilst being built as was standard for internal areas. This particular example was Werner Mölders old mount WNr.3737 that exploded in mid-air (possibly hit by a bomb dropped by another Luftwaffe bomber) with Hans Asmus piloting the aircraft whilst Mölders was flying his new F-1. I have considered whether this may have been a one off applied in field but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of another colour having been applied below this layer of black.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Clinton78

[Steven Eisenman]

Jerry Crandall, who has engaged in a good deal of primary research, has indicated that he has documented at least 11 variations of (RLM) Farbton 66 over time. It could, like the US interior green, been an issue of airframe manufacturer and supplier.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Steven Eisenman

[Steven Eisenman]

E cockpits. Not that the instrument panel was more a dark blue-gray, while the instrument bezels were black.

02

66

[cossack52]

not wishing to cause any upset,but if i'm doing rlm66,i use humbrol 67 panzer grey;it is among the few recent humbrol colours i've used that covers well and dries!

[Alan Kelley]

I would agree with the above- use RLM 66 on the cockpit- Mr Hobby do it, stocked by MDC. Positively the best paints I have ever used.

I made a bobo with my JU-88. It should have been done in RLM 02, but painted it in RLM 66- I interpreted the photos on JU-88 as being closer to 66 than 02. Apprarently I am wrong, but too late now. At least I am doing the wheel wells in the proper colour. I am also currently doing a 109 G-10. The cockpit in that should be 66- the taile wheel well should be 02 and the main bays a mix of 02 and metallic.

[Clinton78]

To be fair Alan, the Ju88 used RLM66 as a cockpit colour proven at least on some examples from quite an early stage of WW2. Early in 1940 so you may have got the interior colour correct?

[Steven Eisenman]

Ju 88 had a dark gray (Farbton 66) cockpit in production from the A-1.

I believe the A-0 did also.