1/48 British heavies- why overdue?

[Radpoe Spitfire]

I know this has probably been done a few times but, is it time for a proper call to manufacturers for some accurate British heavy bomber kits.

When you consider how many kits there are in 1/72 scale, we are bereft of them in 1/48.

The technology, demand & markets for them are all there. Other than a Stirling, examples of real Halifax and Lancaster are readily available.

To date we have had 1 each of Halifax and Lancaster and 2 of vac form Halifax's- a bit sad really.

So how do you folks out there feel?

Edited May 3, 2014 by Radpoe Spitfire

[tomprobert]

To be fair most, if not all of the RAF's main bomber fleet has been done in 1/48th at some point. The Lancaster and Wellington are the best known two, mainly because they've been done by Tamiya and Trumpeter respectively. There is Fonderie's Halifax of course, which I suppose you could loosely call an injection moulded kit!

Sanger and Contrail vacs cover the rest, including the Stirling and early mark Halifaxes, as well as the Hampden and Whitley. The Lincoln is available from Sanger, too.

But, you are absolutely right that we are most over-due a new tooled series of RAF bombers. I too agree that there's a market there, undoubtedly with a Halifax and Stirling, especially here in the UK and Europe. The Whitley and Hampden would likely sell well too, but I suppose you have to consider a world-wide market, not just the UK/Europe. Would other less iconic aircraft (when compared to the Lancaster) sell?

The fact that Trumpeter did the Wellington would lead me to the conclusion that manufacturers are confident these lesser known bombers will sell, and the fact that they've got a Whirlwind about to be released shows it's not as if they're unwilling to manufacture the more obscure subjects. I personally think a series of 1/48th bombers would be welcomed by all - and I would also think that of all the likely manufacturers Trumpeter would be the safest bet to do them.

Tom

[Troy Smith]

hi Adrian

I don't know if there is that much demand really. I know the FM Halifax sells for a fair whack, but the Halton is still available.

The only vac Halifax was by Contrail, and Sanger took over the moulds.

The Sanger Sterling is a horror http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/18153-sanger-148-stirling/

The Tamiya Lancaster has A LOT of issues http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/80456-tamiya-148-lancaster/#entry882341

it can be done http://sas.raf38group.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=798

What would be really good would be decent 1/144th ones! Nice scale do do some interesting marking options

In some ways it's a blessing.... where would you put the damn things [says he with a Sanger Sterling I got cheap...a Halton...now, could I get a Halifax self-abuse from Sanger.... and a part Tamiya lanc from my youth...]

sorry, rambling..hope the links are of interest.

T

[JohnT]

Personally I have always been a bit surprised that the Lancaster has only had 1 injected mould kit in 1/48 and the Halifax the same. The FM model would probably be discounted by a rival manufacturer so if there are buyers for them there is a gap in the market as there is little competition

[Radpoe Spitfire]

I know that American types ie, B17, B24 & B29 were and still are good sellers, even selling at a reasonable price. The Tamiya Lancaster still sells well despite the higher pricing.

The evidence is also there that high price quality kits still sell in good numbers that justify investment.

It is just surprising that it doesn't seem to be taken on board by producers.

If we want it we need to shout it out

[venomvixen]

God this gets tiring.

No matter what we think would sell or how big a chunk of the market we think we are (not very)

the manufacturers are only going to make things that make them a profit and keep the share holders happy.

Tamiya keeps pushing out the Lanc because it sells as is and its paid for itself, no reason to make another.

Halifax's and Stirling's may be much in want by forums members but means sod all to the average punter.

All about the bucks people, pure and simple.

Interesting thread over at the neighbours place

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/message/1399120886/A+few+thoughts+on+manufacturers+kit+choices.++1-48+P-40B+anyone-

A few interesting points as to why Luft 46 gets a run

[Jennings Heilig]

I don't know if there is that much demand really.

I strongly suspect that's the major reason you don't see them.

[Alan Kelley]

Possible size? Having built the Tamiya Lancaster I know it is absolutely huge when built. I have the Trumpy Wellington to buils and from the looks of it, will be pretty damn big when finished. The American 1/48s where all done by Monogram- an American comnapy- and have been reboxed by Revell after they merged. The Wellington is the only 1/48th I can remember in the past few years.

[andrewfl290]

But, you are absolutely right that we are most over-due a new tooled series of RAF bombers. I too agree that there's a market there, undoubtedly with a Halifax and Stirling, especially here in the UK and Europe.

I agree too and would be a customer. I already have the FM Halifax and Hampden, Tamiya Lancaster, Trumpeter Wellington, Sanger Stirling, Halifax and Manchester.

HK Models see there is a demand for 1/32 models of the B-17 and Lancaster which, due to the physical size and cost would surely be a very limited market and more limited than the market for 1/48 RAF bombers.

Edited May 4, 2014 by andrewfl290

[andrewfl290]

God this gets tiring.

No matter what we think would sell or how big a chunk of the market we think we are (not very)

the manufacturers are only going to make things that make them a profit and keep the share holders happy.

Tamiya keeps pushing out the Lanc because it sells as is and its paid for itself, no reason to make another.

Halifax's and Stirling's may be much in want by forums members but means sod all to the average punter.

All about the bucks people, pure and simple.

Interesting thread over at the neighbours place

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/message/1399120886/A+few+thoughts+on+manufacturers+kit+choices.++1-48+P-40B+anyone-

A few interesting points as to why Luft 46 gets a run

It might get tiring for you, personally I would like to see some 1/48 RAF bombers.

If it's all about the bucks why do some expensive kits out there sell? What's expensive? Tamiya 1/32 Spitfire? HK B-17? They are selling because forum members and others are buying them

[Guest]

I have to agree with Venomvixen, the demand for big 1/48 kits is probably not great enough for the kit companies to consider the great expense involved with tooling up one of these bombers. I would love to see Tamiya or Revell make a Stirling bomber, but how many Americans and other nationalities relate to British bombers outside of the Lanc? Probably not enough to make the endeavor cost effective. It is interesting how a company like Tamiya can justify producing another Stormovik when we already have a couple available, and that is just one example of redundancy, not that making another Stormovik is necessarily bad, some of us feel that the energy and money put into the Stormovik could have been used to make a kit that is really needed like a Spitfire Mk XIV for example. That is one kit that really needs to be accurately done in 1/48. Realistically, if anybody would be likely to do a 1/48 four engined RAF bomber it would most likely be Trumpeter, but with our luck they would make a Lancaster. There is always hope. Mine is that Revell will retool their B-17F and include parts for an RAF version.

Cheers

Edited May 4, 2014 by Spitfire addict

[venomvixen]

It might get tiring for you, personally I would like to see some 1/48 RAF bombers.

If it's all about the bucks why do some expensive kits out there sell? What's expensive? Tamiya 1/32 Spitfire? HK B-17? They are selling because forum members and others are buying them

I don't see your point? your telling me kits are selling but your example is a Tamiya Spit?

Two of the most sure fire words to make money in this hobby are "Tamiya" and "Spitfire"

Tamiya is an absolute juggernaut in Japan (That's where they make their big bucks, not us) and everybody knows what a Spitfire is.

HK B-17 hasn't been around long enough and was already partially done by somebody else (If you believe the hype) so cant be used as

an accurate indicator.

For the record I would happily buy 48th Pom bombers if somebody made them, already have two Lanc's and a Halifax, but I'm not going to hold

my breath.

[Radpoe Spitfire]

I see the point about Tamiya and the Spitfire, but do does the Lancaster and Halifax - albeit a smaller scale.

To date Airfix have produced 3 moulds (standard) for Lancaster, Revell 2 & Hasegawa, even more if you include sub variants.

The Halifax 1 Airfix and 2 Revell.

The market is there.

[mackem01]

With my limited knowledge, most American heavies have been kitted by their manufacturers, they know there will be a strong demand from American modellers. I don't think Airfix is in a position to do the same over here, but you never know. I think what's needed is someone like A2Zee to maybe produce correction kits for the Sanger offerings which do make a basis for a good kit. I have a couple of Sanger kits, I've not started either yet but they seem fine to me. However the bottom line for me is if it looks like a Stirling, Halifax, etc then that's good enough for me - the builder can do whatever mods they want to.

[woody37]

They're some really obscure stuff out there that people have chosen to manufacture, eg. Luftwaffe 46 stuff, so not sure why they are considered a safe market to enter, but Brit heavies aren't. He219 in large scale has been done twice recently, yet only 300 were produced, it's impact on the war was minimal and I would of thought it's interest throughout the world far less than a 1/48 Halifax which served in several theatres and operated by 7 nations in military guise alone.

[chaddy]

I would think our best hope must be Airfix.

They produce a fair range 1/48 stuff, and one would have thought that the previous stuff in that scale would probably have been limited to "British" appeal e.g. Javelin, etc. Also they've done big kits in the past, and while the Spitfire, Mustang, Mosquito may well have international appeal, the new Typhoon seems mainly aimed at the British/Commonwealth market. If it does sell well into the wider international market then that will surely be a testament to the design, quality and detail of the kit. If that is the case then there should be no reason why a similar quality 1/48 rendering of a Lancaster, Halifax, Stirling. etc, etc might not also sell well.

[tomprobert]

Absolutely agree Woody.

Earlier I mentioned the new Trumpeter Whirlwind. Again, not exactly an iconic British aircraft but Trumpeter have taken the plunge.

Also, having time to ponder this further, I think I was rather naive in summing up demand. Just because it's a British bomber, doesn't mean there's no international demand. I'm sure there are many Americans who'd buy RAF bombers in 1/48th. Shockingly, I live in the UK and have all of Monogram's classic 1/48th US bombers in my stash. Being British, I don't just build British aircraft! I don't think Revell only sells 1/32nd Ju88s in Germany either. And I'm sure Tamiya sold a few if its 1/32nd Zeros outside of Japan!

I'm certain demand is there - all we need to do now is wait for a mainstream manufacturer to step up and get going!

Tom

Edited May 4, 2014 by tomprobert

[Radpoe Spitfire]

To be fair the 2 main Brit heavies aren't limited to the Brit market, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, France are good examples.

As for size being an Issue, there are quite a few models that fall into the large category, not all in the same scale, but have similar dimensions, ie 1/72 707, 1/24 Mosquito, 1/48 B17 & B24.

Price doesn't seem to cause much of a problem either, WnW, HK models & Z M have all gone for large or high end markets which are more limited.

Large kits are popular, there is a huge website dedicated to them and they're a useful tool for museums.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Radpoe Spitfire

[JohnT]

Logically I would have to agree with Venom Vixen in that if one assumes the manufacturers do their numbers right then they have evidence that there is a market for the Lancaster in 1/72 and a limited market for it in 1/48 and 1/32 despite it being either the most famous bomber or at least second of WW2.

Equally the Halifax and Stirling hardly rate a mention with the Halifax getting an ancient kit off Airfix and two off Matchbox and Revell all 1/72respectively

The Stirling gets an elderly kit in 1/72 and that's it. Period.

Yes there are very poor quality vacs out there which I have discounted as I don't see a mainstream producer seeing them as competition on the marketplace.

If that's their business plan then it's their business to make a profit and you can't really argue with that.

What runs contrary to that is the production of other types which by comparison emerge onto the modelling shelves from the fog of obscurity.

Set aside our knowledge a moment and ask what kid or Dad is likely to know of say a Wyvern or Spiteful, a Henschel or Arado, as opposed to the Lanc and Halifax at least if not the Stirling and on that basis what is most likely to appeal to the buyer? What I am saying is the choice for new moulds often appeals to me as an enthusiast but I am perplexed by the choice of subject when mainstream types are so poorly served.

[dambuster]

A couple of thoughts. Firstly, how does Trumpeter's 'cost to market' compare with Airfix, for example? If they can resarch, tool up, produce and distribute at lower cost, and price competitively, then they make a greater margin per unit sold so can afford to produce subjects that will likely have lower sales volumes. Remember also that a re-seller (eg model shop) may be more willing to take on stock where the wholesale cost to him allows him to sell at a bigger margin, as he might only have to sell one Trumpeter 'obscureprop' to make the same profit as selling four Airfix 'wonderjets' for example.

Secondly, we should also remember demographics. Growing up in the 'golden age' of Airfix, many subjects released were from WW2 and there was still plenty of influence in films, books, magazines etc. Conversely, their limited WW1 releases held less interest; that conflict had taken place over 50 years earlier so was not an influence over my modelling interests.

Today I think we as a modelling community lose sight of the fact that WW2 is now more than 70 years past and will have only monir influence over the general public's model buying habits, excluding of course the icons that have become part of our 'culture' and which can be seen particupating at airshows.

'OK', I hear you say, 'how does that explain Wingnut or ZM'? Well in the former case, I am sure that if a group of us on here were able to amass a fortune and then indulge our hobby to the extent of setting up a model manufacturing company called 'Britheavies' we wouldn't be too concerned about profitability.... And ZM sell at the premium end of the market so they rely on they 'high cost'-'high price' Model to generate profits.

When you look at the variety of aircraft types that we can get in plastic and the vast range of manufacturers - from large companies to cottage industries on an international scale - the lack of certain types in certain scales must be an indicator of the profitability of specific subjects.

Peter

[gingerbob]

One thought I've just had about the "they do the numbers" theory- how on earth could a company estimate how many Farleigh Fruitbat kits they'd be likely to sell? It strikes me as an assumption that we on the outside make, that they do some careful cost-benefit analysis before committing to a new tooling job.

A more general consideration might run something like this: 1) fighters will sell better than bombers, let alone any other types. 2) The more engines/ complexity (of airframe), the less volume you're generally going to sell, regardless of size. Complexity of kit is another thing altogether- you've got the ZM skeletal approach, which turns me off (and frankly, with something like the big Typhoon, or a Tamiya Spit, for that matter, the first thing I'd do is figure out how many parts I can chuck for the configuration (cowl ON) I've got in mind) and on the other end of the spectrum something like a Trumpeter Vampire or Spiteful- keep the kit simple, don't complicate things that don't need to be. [Edit: Please note I'm just saying there are different approaches to producing a kit, not that one is "better" than the other from the company's perspective.]

I'm also not entirely convinced about the "what's our competition?" aspect. A company might be just as likely to say, "There's probably a reason nobody else has chosen to do this..." or "Well, everybody else seems to think an Me-109 is worth doing..." as to say, "Well, we'd have done a Halifax but FM beat us to it."

The point about 1/32 bombers is an interesting one (personally I think it's insane!), but what do they do? B-17, Lancaster, B-25- the usual suspects, just in a different scale. Let's face it, think about "British heavy bombers of WWII" and the list will always run:

Lancaster (miles ahead)

Halifax ("the 'other' heavy)

Stirling (well...)

And that's among the enthusiasts, forget about the layman.

Lastly, the comparison of "WWI then" vs. "WWII now" is interesting, and probably does have some relevance to the potential new modeler market, if we assume that these newcomers would be likely to be younger, if not actually kids. I imagine they'd be more likely to get turned on by some jet thing that has some relevance to their world. However, as a counter-argument, I propose that the spectrum of aircraft design and use is somewhat fixed- the WWI period will always be seen as somewhat fumbling early days, while the 30s through WWII is a high point of "modern" piston engined aircraft design and use, with a sprinkling of jets thrown in. Not to mention it's the period starring everybody's favorite bad guys. Then cometh the jet age, and I don't really relate to it enough to postulate about significant eras within that realm (maybe before and after everything became grey?)

Sorry, no great wisdom there, just some thoughts brought on by such discussions.

bob

Edited May 4, 2014 by gingerbob

[Edgar]

We appear to have a standard heart-ruling-head situation (again.)

"I'd buy one, even two" is the standard cry, which means that the company only(!!!) needs another 4,999 customers for its first production run (which won't cover the costs of the mould plus all the other ancillaries like wages,) but will those 5,000 buy a second run in 5 years time?

If the company can't see that sort of potential (and 5 years later, and.......) you might as well use your crystal ball in a bowling alley, 'cause it ain't going to happen, folks.

A Lancaster potentially gives you standard, Dambuster, Tallboy, and Grand Slam versions, with the Halifax and Stirling trailing far in its wake (apparently the first issue of the 1/72 Stirling is cashing in on the D-day anniversary by coming out as a glider-tug.)

Youngsters have begun to show a real interest again in WWII, rebelling (there's a surprise) at all the attempts to have it quietly forgotten, and, virtually every weekend, they have umpteen chances to see a Spitfire, Hurricane and Lancaster flying at an air display, naturally followed by "Can I have a model of that, Dad?"

[chaddy]

Perhaps a little off topic, but does anyone know how many Airfix 1/24 Mosquitos were produced/sold? I get the feeling that it was something of a success, but am I correct? Surely an Airfix 1/48 Lancaster to rival Tamiya on price and accuracy must stand a chance?

[Alan Kelley]

We appear to have a standard heart-ruling-head situation (again.)"I'd buy one, even two" is the standard cry, which means that the company only(!!!) needs another 4,999 customers for its first production run (which won't cover the costs of the mould plus all the other ancillaries like wages,) but will those 5,000 buy a second run in 5 years time?If the company can't see that sort of potential (and 5 years later, and.......) you might as well use your crystal ball in a bowling alley, 'cause it ain't going to happen, folks.A Lancaster potentially gives you standard, Dambuster, Tallboy, and Grand Slam versions, with the Halifax and Stirling trailing far in its wake (apparently the first issue of the 1/72 Stirling is cashing in on the D-day anniversary by coming out as a glider-tug.)Youngsters have begun to show a real interest again in WWII, rebelling (there's a surprise) at all the attempts to have it quietly forgotten, and, virtually every weekend, they have umpteen chances to see a Spitfire, Hurricane and Lancaster flying at an air display, naturally followed by "Can I have a model of that, Dad?"

I can vouch for kids being interested in WWII- my 12 year old is fascinated by it and is constantly asking questions. Having a great grandad that served certainly helps that. My grandad was a Chief Petty Officer doing Atlantic convoys.

[AlCZ]

Trumpeter was company what made many types of weapons in all categories... Submarines, armor, aircraft. Main or marginal.... But accuracy was limited...And price tag not too good...And US Heavies ? B-17&B-24&B-29 in quarter scale... Monogram only (a thirty years old mould.) HK models prepare a Lancaster release in 1/32... Quarter scale bombers not very popular...