Looking for pictures of camouflaged RAF Hinds

[Selwyn]

Looking for pictures of camoflaged RAF Hawker Hinds (not trainers with yellow undersides)

searched everywhere I know but having no luck.

Can anyone help?

Selwyn

[Dave Fleming]

613 Squadron would be your best bet, as they kept them into the first few months of the War

[Selwyn]

613 Squadron would be your best bet, as they kept them into the first few months of the War

613 sqn AAF is what I am Particularly looking for, and so far no luck!

Selwyn

[Dave Fleming]

Have you looked at the Day & Night series that Aeroplane ran? If not, I'll have a dig.

[Selwyn]

Have you looked at the Day & Night series that Aeroplane ran? If not, I'll have a dig.

Dave Never seen this series, a look would be most useful?

Selwyn

[Dave Fleming]

Will see if I can find it, it was a series they ran on RAF between the wars bombers, multi-part per subject.

[John Aero]

613 gets a brief mention in that it states that the Hinds were flown alongside the Hectors from Oct 1939 till April 1940, and that the Hectors were camouflaged and carried the codes ZR. But it is not known if the Hinds were similarly camouflaged! They were then at Odiham which was a front line station so I would suggest that the Hinds were also camouflaged as the Hectors had also been originally delivered in Silver. Is there a history of RAF Odiham which might throw some light on this? The problem is they were an Army Co-op Sdn and as such aren't covered very well.

John

[rossm]

The problem is they were an Army Co-op Sdn and as such aren't covered very well.

John

Indeed, the Airfix magazine series on Army Co-op by Bruce Robertson & Mike Bowyer doesn't have anything, nor does the section on 613 in the '25 Squadrons' history of the RAuxAF - there are a couple of shots of a silver Hind and a silver Hector but I don't think they are necessarily 613 Sqdn machines at the time the photo was taken,

Ross

Edited April 29, 2014 by rossm

[Selwyn]

613 gets a brief mention in that it states that the Hinds were flown alongside the Hectors from Oct 1939 till April 1940, and that the Hectors were camouflaged and carried the codes ZR. But it is not known if the Hinds were similarly camouflaged! They were then at Odiham which was a front line station so I would suggest that the Hinds were also camouflaged as the Hectors had also been originally delivered in Silver. Is there a history of RAF Odiham which might throw some light on this? The problem is they were an Army Co-op Sdn and as such aren't covered very well.

John

John

Been doing some research on this, apparently there was a "christening ceremony" for 613 at Manchester airport (Reported in flight magazine June 1939) on 18th May 1939, presided over by the lord mayor of Manchester. The ceremony involved champers being poured over a Hind wheel and later on "several officials" made short flights. I am going to search the local Manchester news archives as soon as I can to see if any pictures exist as I would of thought this occurance might be locally newsworthy and reported. Also there was an Empire Air Day at the airport a few days later (20th) where it was again reported that 613 flew a display, This might also be featured in the newspaper archives.

A long shot but the best I can do!

I will let you know if anything turns up.

Selwyn

[Troy Smith]

Looking for pictures of camoflaged RAF Hawker Hinds (not trainers with yellow undersides)

searched everywhere I know but having no luck.

Can anyone help?

Selwyn

Selwyn

on page 57 of the Crawford Hawker Hart Family book, there is camouflaged Hind of 609 sq, K5421.

the photo is side on, and not too clear, looks like camouflage, and has an odd roundel, seeming to be a B type, but with a pale outer ring and large centre. Never noticed anything like it before.

Do you have the book, or is this a scan job?

HTH

T

[Dave Fleming]

The mention of 609 reminded me there was a website with a lot of pics of their aircraft on it.

There is a Hind on page 24 of the following PDF, which is clearly camouflaged. You can't see any detail and the black underside COULD be an orthochromatic rendition of yellow.

http://www.609wrsquadron.co.uk/Archives/Photo_Galleries/Church%20Fenton.pdf

And K5421 is on page 19 of this one

http://www.609wrsquadron.co.uk/Archives/Photo_Galleries/Ursel,%20Warmwell,Wunstorf,Yeadon.pdf

I think they might be the same aircraft

Edited April 30, 2014 by Dave Fleming

[Troy Smith]

The mention of 609 reminded me there was a website with a lot of pics of their aircraft on it.

And K5421 is on page 19 of this one

http://www.609wrsquadron.co.uk/Archives/Photo_Galleries/Ursel,%20Warmwell,Wunstorf,Yeadon.pdf

This photo of K5421 is the same as in the Crawford Hart book, but this is a bit lighter, so the fuselage serial is visible, and a lot bigger.

The roundel is really odd. Perhaps part done and awaiting a ring of blue paint?

[Gumbie Air Services]

AZ Models and Kora make kits featuring camouflaged Hinds.

[Test Graham]

B roundels were quite common on the fuselage in the post-Munich period. The yellow ring was added later when they were thought to be not visible enough. The combination isn't a common sight - most types see to have gone to red/white/blue. It seems a bit low on the fuselage to receive another ring of blue, but on the other hand a bit small for the red and blue. Yes, odd.

Black undersides is correct for Bombers. Black/white undersides would be correct for AAC aircraft, but the opposite wing. I suspect K5421 is in Yellow, in the photo above.

[Selwyn]

This photo of K5421 is the same as in the Crawford Hart book, but this is a bit lighter, so the fuselage serial is visible, and a lot bigger.

The roundel is really odd. Perhaps part done and awaiting a ring of blue paint?

I think that is a silver ring awaiting blue paint (look at the U/C struts)

Selwyn

AZ Models and Kora make kits featuring camouflaged Hinds.

Yes But New Zealand ones.

Selwyn

[John Aero]

My guess on this odd roundel is that the old roundel has been simply over painted with Silver dope which was quick drying has very good covering properties and the new 25" "B" roundel with 10" centre is being applied over the top. The usual quick way was to extend the Red centre to 10" and bring the Blue inwards to meet it, but this often resulted in a pale ring where the white showed through.

John

[mick b]

In John Rawlings 'Coastal, Support and Special Squadrons' there is fairly close in image of a 613 Squadron Hector in camouflage and with the codes ZR that John mentions. Should one assume the Hinds would have been finished in a similar fashion?

Mick

[Selwyn]

In John Rawlings 'Coastal, Support and Special Squadrons' there is fairly close in image of a 613 Squadron Hector in camouflage and with the codes ZR that John mentions. Should one assume the Hinds would have been finished in a similar fashion?

Mick

That is precisely what I am trying to positively confirm.

Selwyn

[John Aero]

After the start of the war a Silver aeroplane would be quite a good advertisement for an aerodrome's location. I think we can safely assume they were camouflaged and codes would equally make sense for more than one aircraft operating together as a serial number would be virtually unreadable.

John

[Test Graham]

After Munich RAF frontline aircraft were camouflaged. There's no reason to imagine why 613 were any different. Squadron codes were also introduced, those for 613 Sq being sadly unconfirmed. There remains the possibility that they retained the post-Munich era into wartime, namely ZR, which is what JD Rawlings believed in his RAF Squadrons works. However, as Hectors were not introduced until November 1939, and Harts stayed on a few months longer, there's no real room for doubt that ZR codes were carried on camouflaged Hinds.

There may be room to doubt the professionalism of the finish, whether it closely matched the AM drawings or not. Or, for that matter, just which roundels were carried. And as always, sadly for the modeller, which codes went with which serial. But the basic finish? No.

[Selwyn]

After Munich RAF frontline aircraft were camouflaged. There's no reason to imagine why 613 were any different. Squadron codes were also introduced, those for 613 Sq being sadly unconfirmed. There remains the possibility that they retained the post-Munich era into wartime, namely ZR, which is what JD Rawlings believed in his RAF Squadrons works. However, as Hectors were not introduced until November 1939, and Harts stayed on a few months longer, there's no real room for doubt that ZR codes were carried on camouflaged Hinds.

There may be room to doubt the professionalism of the finish, whether it closely matched the AM drawings or not. Or, for that matter, just which roundels were carried. And as always, sadly for the modeller, which codes went with which serial. But the basic finish? No.

613 Did not have "Munich" codes as the Squadon was not officially formed until 18 May 1939 The codes for 613 "ZR" were listed in a AMO (can't remember the number or the precise date and I am at work so can't check up, but it was issued in March or April 1939 IIRC).

I too believe that the aircaft were camoflaged and carried ZR codes but I would still like some photographic confirmation. In particular references state that the aircraft should have been in the shadow scheme DE/DG LE/LG colours with the lower fuselage sides in the LE/LG colours but plainly the 609 aircraft picture shows that the fuselage was entirely DG/DE.

Incedentally I have an A model Hector and I noticed that the ZR codes on the decal sheet are in white. Is this correct? I believed that the codes were supposed to be MSG at this time. Willing to be corrected on this!

Selwyn

Edited May 1, 2014 by Selwyn

[Test Graham]

The AMO is A.154/39, issued 27.4.39, which is a full listing of the prewar codes. Quite why Messrs. Thomas and Flintham cast doubt on their use in 613 Sq. is perhaps a matter to ask them, but I suspect because of the same thing that troubles you, a lack of photographic evidence. Some units are known to have carried these codes well before the issue of this AMO, and others e.g. 73 Sq. began by painting on their eventual wartime codes before being corrected! .So clearly two such lists were available simultaneously - it raises the question of what wartime codes 613 were allocated and could it be that 613 got their codes crossed but never realised it?

It does seem from a number of photos that aircraft painted "on the unit" were camouflaged in just the two top colours not the full four. Similar examples can be seen in 607 Sq, both Demon and Gladiator. A quick look provided photos of 23 and 73 which appear to show the same but are less clear.

I'd go with MSG codes too.

[Selwyn]

The AMO is A.154/39, issued 27.4.39, which is a full listing of the prewar codes. Quite why Messrs. Thomas and Flintham cast doubt on their use in 613 Sq. is perhaps a matter to ask them, but I suspect because of the same thing that troubles you, a lack of photographic evidence. Some units are known to have carried these codes well before the issue of this AMO, and others e.g. 73 Sq. began by painting on their eventual wartime codes before being corrected! .So clearly two such lists were available simultaneously - it raises the question of what wartime codes 613 were allocated and could it be that 613 got their codes crossed but never realised it?

It does seem from a number of photos that aircraft painted "on the unit" were camouflaged in just the two top colours not the full four. Similar examples can be seen in 607 Sq, both Demon and Gladiator. A quick look provided photos of 23 and 73 which appear to show the same but are less clear.

I'd go with MSG codes too.

In my hunt for pictures I came across this image on the Air britain site:

http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1332935/

Its a Hind trainer L7195 at Ringway in July 39 proporting to be from 50 E&RFTS based at Ringway.

I believe its mislabelled. 50 E&RFTS were not based at Ringway, they were based at Booker, but there does not seem to be any visible unit marking. but L7195 was listed as being used by 50 Sqn at Waddington until 1938.

I can only speculate if this aircraft was actually issued to 613 as a trainer for the squadron startup?

As can be seen it still was in silver colour scheme, I believe by then an aircraft issued to 50 E&RFTS, a training unit, it would (or should!) have probably been in the overall trainer yellow scheme.

Still no sign of a 613 camouflage Hind, still looking!

Selwyn

Edit

Fortunately the history of this aircraft is a available as it was one of the Hind trainers that was supplied to the RNZAF in 1940. it ended its days as a parts source in Australia in 1942.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Selwyn

[JOAN]

Hi,

Quite little out of the question but some really nices pics here :

http://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/17598/hind-pile

and an amazing album here :

http://saafww2photographs.yolasite.com/fritz-johl.php

olivier

[John Aero]

That second album is amazing with some interesting prewar types and some oddities. Among the light types (mainly DH 60 Moths) are a Junkers Junior, Avian, and Pussmoth .

The oddities are the Magister with the Messier type u/c and the post war Chipmunk with a VP prop.

John