DominikS Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Hi All I'm currently building No. 222 Squadron Spitfire Mk.I (ZD-A P9317) from the Battle for Dunkirk. Soon I'm gonna start placing decals and I have a problem. If my knowledge about roundels is correct (and probably isn't) the roundel placed on the black (night) painted underwing shout have yellow outer wing. The issue is that DP Casper's decals don't have it. I was trying to find a photo of that plane but I haven't found any. Can anyone help? Cheers Dominik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 The yellow surround is a bit unlikely; the order for it wasn't sent out until June 4th., and, on June 7th., it was followed by a further order that the undersides were to be painted with Sky. When the black port wing (only) reappeared in November 1940, so did the yellow surround for the roundel. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2wheels Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 I don't know if the colour scheme of the restored Spitfire P9734 would be relevant, but the pictures on Flickr are worth a look for reference if nothing else. https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwhitworth/sets/72157627164130139 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominikS Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share Posted April 18, 2014 Edgar, the information you've given is surprising as I remember a few photos of Spitfires with black and white undersides with roundels having yellow surround from the Dunkirk evacuation period. 2wheels great photos! Wish I had decals to build her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 (edited) MAY 16th., roundels only:- June 4th., yellow surrounds:- Edited April 18, 2014 by Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Dominiks: The problem lies in knowing whether the photos actually belong to the period claimed. 2Wheels: in Andy Saunders book on the restoration of P9374, the matter of the yellow surround underwing is discussed on pages 117/8. He quotes the date of the 4th June, signal X479, but goes on to say "...there is evidence that this may have already been put into effect prior to the date the signal was actually issued and that operational squadrons were clearly applying the change "in the field". Therefore the signal simply made it official across the entirety of Fighter Command. It was thus decided at the yellow band should be applied to P9374, although naturally it is recognised that this may be in error. It is, though , a best guess - albeit an educated one." It would have been good had he expanded further on the words "evidence", "may" and "clearly". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcanicity Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 These help? You can match the shots together by the staining at the wingroot - definitely both the same machine. Unless it's orthochromatic film and the yellow is invisible on a black wing, I'd say leave the yellow rings off. Disclaimer: Pics off the internet somewhere a couple of years back, no copyright infringement intended! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominikS Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 Vulcanicity thatnks for great photos. For me it's clearly visible that there isn't thye yellow ring underwing. It's not orthochromatic as yellow ring is clearly visible on the fuselage as light colour. Edgar thanks for making it clear . Unless I have good photo evidence I'll leave yellow off from now on (nontheless I remember photos desribed as Dunkirk period - later I'll try to find them and post here). Thanks for help! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Parked with flaps down too Steve 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 It rather looks as if it had the fabric patches, too, which makes their use very much earlier than I first thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcanicity Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 It was a post-forced landing shot, so I imagine the hydraulics were shot through! I've always been intrigued as to the colour and purpose of the band under the nose of this aircraft-some sort of flight leader/CO marking perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Spitfire flaps are operated pneumatically, not hydraulically, and held down (against the airflow) by positive pressure. If the system fails or is damaged in flight the flaps should both be forced up, avoiding asymmetric operation. On the ground the flaps were raised by a compression spring 'enclosed in a cylinder and connected to the flap' according to the pilot's notes. For whatever reason, and the fact that it is a post forced landing photograph must be a clue, the aircraft looks, unusually, to have been parked, flaps down Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I've always been intrigued as to the colour and purpose of the band under the nose of this aircraft-some sort of flight leader/CO marking perhaps? Hi I have often wondered if was an indication to groundcrew that 100 octane fuel was to be used cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Well, the time-line fits; P9317 was delivered to 222 on March 9th., and FTR on June 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominikS Posted April 22, 2014 Author Share Posted April 22, 2014 Just one more question about the a/c. The code letters on starboard side should read ZD-A or A-ZD (looking at the fuselage)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilneBay Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Just one more question about the a/c. The code letters on starboard side should read ZD-A or A-ZD (looking at the fuselage)? Well unless there is a pic of the aircraft it's anybody's guess. There was no agreed standard at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Going back to the question of yellow surrounds for port underwing roundels on Dunkirk-era Spitfires, there's a pic on p.64 of Osprey's "Spitfire MkI/II Aces" book showing Bob Stanford-Tuck and Allan Wright in front of one of 92 Sqn's Spitfires. The aircraft still wears the GR unit codes (before the change to QV in the June 1940 timeframe) and apparently has a yellow surround to the port underwing roundel. I haven't found the pic online and I don't have a scanner but it's there...honest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 (edited) And here's another example (Post #184) of a (sadly unidentified) Spit with Type A1 roundels on the port underwing. Apparently taken in France at the time of the Dunkirk evacuation. Edited April 23, 2014 by mhaselden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 "You do not have permission to view this forum." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 "You do not have permission to view this forum." In that case edgar it is time you joined ...😀 there is a great deal of info on the board, of interest maybe there are many crash photos of raf a/c in france cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 And here's another example (Post #184) of a (sadly unidentified) Spit with Type A1 roundels on the port underwing. Apparently taken in France at the time of the Dunkirk evacuation. Try this alternate link to the same pic on ebay. I usually avoid ebay links 'cos stuff disappears very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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