601 Sqn, Italy, 1944

[Gary]

Hi,

This may have been discussed already and, if so, I'd like some direction to the thread.

I'm trying to pin down the camouflage colours used by 601 Sqn while in Italy in early 1944. I've heard two options:

a. Dark Earth and Middle Stone over Azure Blue.

b. Dark Green and Ocean Grey over either Medium Grey or Azure Blue.

My uncle flew with 601 during this period, and I have the markings for his Spitfire. If anyone can aim me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

[Test Graham]

It is possible but perhaps unlikely to have been the Desert Scheme at this time, but could have been the Temperate Land Scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth uppersurfaces, which was an easy modification to aircraft in the earlier Desert scheme. Some fighter units modified their aircraft to this scheme when moving from North Africa to Italy. The Desert scheme had been used by 601 Sq on Spitfires in 1943, so this may be a matter of the age of the individual aircraft. If you can tell us the serial this might help.

It is unlikely to have been Azure Blue under the Day Fighter Scheme (green/grey). The DFS was certainly common, even normal, in Italy in late 1944, but I think early 1944 is a bit early to be sure of this. Do you have any source of photographs of 601 Sq in this period, as it may be possible to interpret these? For example, the presence of the light-coloured (Sky) tail band will pretty well guarantee DFS.

[Gary]

Hello, Graham,

His one and only victory was achieved on 11 March, 1944 over Naples, flying Spitfire Mk. VIII (Clipped Wing) JF834, UF*S. This is the a/c I'd like to replicate. I have access to only a few 601 a/c and cannot make out the details clearly due to development of the image and/or the angle from which the image was taken. Thanks for your help so far.

[AWFK10]

There are a couple of photos of 601 Sqn Spitfire VIIIs in the old Ian Allan "Pictorial History of the Mediterranean Air War", Vol 2, captioned as having been taken "at an airfield in central Italy in mid-1944". One is a rear view of UF-B (or R - the tailplane is in the way), which appears to be in the desert scheme with dark - apparently black - codes. The other shows a line up of four aircraft. UF-Q also looks to have black codes, which have a light-coloured outline. UF-J has light, perhaps even white, codes. Incidentally, there were no 'clipped wing' Mk VIIIs - some of those used in Italy had the extended, high altitude wingtips, though, so the term 'clipped wing' may have been used to describe an aircraft that, in contrast, had the standard wingspan.

[Test Graham]

I wouldn't be so definite - there is a photo of a USAAF clipped-wing Mk.VIII and just to be annoying it is in the High Altitude Scheme of Medium Sea Grey over PRU Blue! It is also a little later.

JF834 is a fairly early aircraft, and as such was most likely delivered with the extended wing tips and in the Desert Scheme. Similar aircraft can be seen in 92 Sq, 81 Sq and with the USAAF (although not I think with the extended tips in that case). 601 Sq used black codes (not sure about any surrounds) on its desert-camouflaged Mk.IXs in North Africa - I've a feeling that the familiar photo shows an earlier UF-S. All Mk.VIIIs were intended to have the extended tips as they had the high-altitude rated Merlin 63, but the extended wing tips meant that in dogfights the stresses on the wing root and fuselage were extreme, and they were generally removed. I've not seen reference to "clipped wings" as meaning anything other than the full square-cut ones but under these particular circumstances it might well mean the standard wing. Most Mk.VIIIs were then fitted with the lower-altitude-rated Merlin 66, but that's a bit later I feel.

I think we can fairly safely rule out the Day Fighter Scheme, and if desert camouflaged aircraft were still around then the squadron probably hadn't gone over to Temperate Land.

Interesting stuff: I'd love to chase more photos but I'm away for a couple of days, so you'll probably have it all sorted out by the time I get back!

[Super Aereo]

Were overseas fighters not supposed to adopt the Day Fighter Scheme from October 1943 onward?

[Gary]

The "clipped wing" reference might be a mistake on my part. My listing of serial numbers and construction dates gives the block JF805-850 as being assigned to the L.F. variant. I had thought that this variant carried the clipped wing configuration for the reasons stated by Graham: aerodynamic efficiency at relatively low altitude dogfighting. Now I find a comment that the designation had more to do with the engine being used. This fits quite neatly with Graham's comment above: " I've not seen reference to "clipped wings" as meaning anything other than the full square-cut ones but under these particular circumstances it might well mean the standard wing."

Now, my information comes from the old/ancient Harleyford "Spitfire - The Story of..." There will probably be more recent information available now, hence my request for assistance. Interestingly (for me) is the drawing of a Spitfire LF VIII in the Harleyford book: standard wingtips, not "clipped." I had always wondered about this, and now it appears that I have my answer. As to colours used, the colour diagram section in Harleyford shows a drawing of a Spitfire F.VIII (JF447, extended wingtips) in Dark Earth/Middle Stone colours, dated 1944.

It's looking at least possible that JF834 had standard wingtips and carried the Dark Earth/Middle Stone colours. All of this, though, is dependent on whether or not a paint scheme transition took place and if so, when and, if so, when JF834 got the treatment. Without a photo of the aircraft it will be difficult to pin down the colours, but we do have some distinct possibilities. I'll keep looking. Further input and guidance always welcome.

Were overseas fighters not supposed to adopt the Day Fighter Scheme from October 1943 onward?

Hi,

I have no information on this, so I will have to defer to the more knowledgeable members of the forum. But thanks for your comment!

[Edgar]

23-2-43 a DTD Technical Circular was issued, in which it said that fighters for desert areas were to be in desert scheme, with azure blue undersides; other fighters for overseas were to be in Day Fighter Scheme, except for fighters destined for Malta, which were to have Light Mediterranean Blue undersides.

In June/July 1943, 601 was in Luqa, Malta, so any aircraft they took with them from North Africa would probably have been in desert scheme, but, if JF834 was delivered during 601's "Luqa" period, it could (should?) have been Dark Green/Ocean Grey/Light Mediterranean Blue.
2-11-43 a second issue of the Tech. Circular retained the desert scheme for that arena, but the Light Mediterranean Blue was dropped from the other overseas schemes, leaving them in Day Fighter Scheme only.
Edgar

Edited April 8, 2014 by Edgar

[Super Aereo]

Thank you for the reminder Edgar, I had actually forgotten the Light Mediterranean Blue for Malta bit!

[Edgar]

Just to give the story another little tweak, in a National Archives "Malta" file, recently, I found an explanatory note, which stated that, when Malta specified "sea camouflage," they meant Mediterranean Blue (presumably the Dark version.)

This referred to Hurricanes, (in the middle of a discussion that Malta didn't want them, any more, since they were now outclassed,) but I doubt that their requirements for Spitfires would have been any different, especially as they (in another file) had asked for the Sea Grey Medium, on top surfaces (VI or H.F.VIII, possibly?) to be overpainted in dark blue.

Edgar

[Super Aereo]

Just to give the story another little tweak, in a National Archives "Malta" file, recently, I found an explanatory note, which stated that, when Malta specified "sea camouflage," they meant Mediterranean Blue (presumably the Dark version.)

This referred to Hurricanes, (in the middle of a discussion that Malta didn't want them, any more, since they were now outclassed,) but I doubt that their requirements for Spitfires would have been any different, especially as they (in another file) had asked for the Sea Grey Medium, on top surfaces (VI or H.F.VIII, possibly?) to be overpainted in dark blue.

Edgar

That will most likely put a very interesting spin on any future discussions about Malta Spitfires...

Edgar you are a living national treasure!

Flavio

[AndyL]

Gary, did your uncle ever fly JF806? That's my interest in 601, as it was the Spitfire flown by F/Lt Ray 'Hindoo' Henderson when he was shot down and killed on March 7th 1944, by Seigfried Lemke of JG2. If you possibly have a individual code letter for it, I would be most interested.

Regards,

Andy

[Gary]

Hi, Andy,

Regarding JF806, I can't tell if my uncle flew it from what I have here. His log (I have a photocopy) has the a/c he flew identified only by the individual letter: no serial, so no link between letter and serial. I found the JF834 connection by getting a copy of the 601 Sqn ORB entry for 11 March, 1944. This shows the mission on which he made his victory, and all pilots are listed against a/c serials. But that's the only entry/page that I have. I'd have to check the ORB from November 1943 to 7 March 1944 to see if he flew JF806. I would not mind doing that, but the ORB is five time zones away from me right now!

[Edgar]

So PM me his name, and, when I'm twiddling my thumbs, at Kew, waiting for files to arrive, I can have a look; can't guarantee to do the lot in one visit, though.

Edgar

[AndyL]

Gary, I have hard copies of the ORB in store. I will pull them out for a look. If you like, I have a small group photo that I will send you. Your uncle may be on that.

[Gary]

So PM me his name, and, when I'm twiddling my thumbs, at Kew, waiting for files to arrive, I can have a look; can't guarantee to do the lot in one visit, though.

Edgar

Edgar,

PM sent. Thanks for your help.

[Gary]

Andy,

Thanks for your offer. PM sent with details.

[Gary]

Rats! Should have mentioned: his log shows first flight ,UF*P, (sector recce) with 601 Sqn on 12 December 1943, and first operational mission, UF*W, on 13 December 1943. This should cut down search time in the ORB.

[AndyL]

Gary, I will dig out my ORB copies when I'm home tomorrow. Will save Edgar a job at least!

[AndyL]

Gary, I will dig out my ORB copies when I'm home tomorrow. Will save Edgar a job at least!

[AndyL]

Gary,

I have dug out my ORB for January to end March 1944. Your uncle flew 19 sorties in January, 20 in February and 28 in March. Those flights were undertaken in 23 different Spitfires. And yes he did fly JF806 on three separate dates January 28th, February 20th and February 21st.

I will email you the photograph later as promised.

Regards

Andy

[Mark Mackenzie]

On 4/9/2014 at 9:33 PM, Edgar said:

Just to give the story another little tweak, in a National Archives "Malta" file, recently, I found an explanatory note, which stated that, when Malta specified "sea camouflage," they meant Mediterranean Blue (presumably the Dark version.)

This referred to Hurricanes, (in the middle of a discussion that Malta didn't want them, any more, since they were now outclassed,) but I doubt that their requirements for Spitfires would have been any different, especially as they (in another file) had asked for the Sea Grey Medium, on top surfaces (VI or H.F.VIII, possibly?) to be overpainted in dark blue.

Edgar

n/m

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[Edgar]

In 1940, Malta had said that they wouldn't replace the black/white with Sky, but maybe the situation forced a change of mind, and, with the Hurricanes unable to get to a reasonable height, sky became acceptable; certainly, in early 1942, fighters heading for Malta were ordered to be Light Mediterranean Blue underneath.

Edgar

Edited April 10, 2014 by Edgar

[Super Aereo]

This is indeed a rather momentous discovery... :-)

[Test Graham]

It'd be a lovely distinctive scheme for a Hurricane, but perhaps unsurprisingly the aircraft on that delivery didn't last long and the only photo I've seen linked to the unit at that time showed a 4-gun aircraft in Desert Scheme - but that was not captioned as being on Malta anyway. It might be worth digging through the sources showing Hurricanes on Malta to see if any can now be identified with these ones.