Andre B Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Really interesting stuff, thanks for posting. Fascinating clips. Noticed at the beginning of the first clip, there appears to be quite noticeable overspray of the spinner colour onto the prop blade roots, one for the detailers out there! Not sure that the musical soundtrack fits the images though. Just a personal nit-picky thing I guess from my perspective (seems to be quite a common trait on alot of Youtube image clips, it seems). Just does not quite go with the filmed images, for some reason. I also noted that the demarkation line between the upper colour and the underside vas rather soft an lower than what mostly seen on modell's. The demarkation line didn't follow the engineplates as most picture shpws but almost 10, 15 cm under... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 The lower demarcation is not uncommon - I've not made any attempt to check whether this is a way of telling Supermarine from CB production or due to some other factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I watched these clips a couple week ago following a link to another subject. Absolutely fascinating stuff. In part 2 with the Spits landing it is almost certainly Exeter. I suspect the Black Beaufighters were of 307 (Polish) Nightfighter squadron that was based at Exeter. Others were most likely at the other staions mentioned (Harrowbeer, Church Stanton). I wonder if the Shuttleworth Spit V is/was among them somewhere in those clips. It served with the Czech squadron coded NN. But note how tatty and well weathered a lot of those aircraft are! The scene with the airman trying to fit the engine cover on withsome struggle and a guy bashing something behind the rearmost exhaust stub! In part 1 , there is one pilot(blonish and a missing tooth) who looks quite nervous just before boarding and getting strapped in. In Pt. 2 you see him looking quite happy. No doubt relieved on making it back. The C type underwing roundel with yellow surround is interesting. This style really appeared in 1945 on 2TAF aircraft so an earlier use makes it an interesting subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I also noted that the demarkation line between the upper colour and the underside vas rather soft an lower than what mostly seen on modell's. The demarkation line didn't follow the engineplates as most picture shpws but almost 10, 15 cm under... I think this was quite standard. Modellers seem to have mistakenly taken the panel line as the demarcation as normal in most models I've seen. Re comment above of the from cockpit take off sequence you will note its green and dark earth camo. Not a Mossie as mentioned above but more than likely a Magister! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 The Shuttleworth Spit is a Mk.Vc and these are Mk.Vbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 If you look at the take off from the cockpit in the second film I can't see the yellow leading edge. Whether it's not there or just can't be seen from that angle I don't know. Near the end an armourer is seen using a stick on patch rather than the expected red doped variety. Trevor Its also green and earth so is likely to be the Magister. The Shuttleworth Spit is a Mk.Vc and these are Mk.Vbs. But it seems ther is a mix of Mk,V's. DH and Rotol props! AR*** serialled Spits and EP*** serialled Spits and probably other ranges, There are ones with external upper wing stiffeners(?) and ones without! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Mk.Vs had a variety of props. For example, the Airfix Mk.Vb came with a Rotol prop/spinner (probably still does), and the easy mod in those days was to take the DH prop/spinner from the Mk.I. The difference between a B and a C is in the wing and undercarriage. The visible difference is the stub for a possible second cannon outboard of the cannon, but bulges are in different places too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Some of the aircraft - as I recall very beginning of Pt.1, at least- are Vcs. I haven't studied the chin paint demarcation either, but I've certainly seen plenty of Spits where it does not follow the cowling panel line- maybe more than ones that do. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelh Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Marvellous film. Ignoring the modelling aspect, it's extremely poignant. Young men at the peak of their lives. The film has an immediacy about it that makes you think it was filmed recently despite the quality. From a modelling point of view. The main thing that leaps out is the scruffiness and general wear and tear of all the Spitfires. Match that in model and you'd face criticism from the purists who would argue that the RAF kept their Spits as clean as the Red Arrows. Definitely inspirational. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Other than the aircraft, What I liked was the personal aspect of the film clips, The breifing by the wingco, what was he pointing at when they all looked round except one guy who might be saying "... I'm not falling for that old trick!", The little black dog on the cowl top and then being blown off the wing almost when the pilot started up, The issuing of their survival/ escape kits by the I/o, the pilots checking and wondering what was in them, what thoughts were going through their minds. The hair styles and varying lengths and general appearances all looked quite laid back. On return, I wonder what they felt, discussed. F. Dolezal looked pretty pleased with the mission. All these things and more I would love to know. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 (edited) The clipped wings suggested to me that some of the film had been shot later than the majority at Exeter/Harrowbeer, and that would be consistent with the appearance of Mk.VC. But see below. I'm not saying that clipped wings = Mk.VC. The Shuttleworth aircraft has spent part of its restored life carrying NN codes. Oddly, it has the wing strengtheners anyway, despite these being intended for the A/B wing. ARxxx were Mk.VB up to AR463, then Mk.VC. Some of the early C are described as LR aircraft - meaning what I don't know - and these did see service with 310 and 312 Sq in late summer 1942 so this is entirely appropriate for the operations of the Czech wing. Presumably they'd appreciate the long range if they went on Rhubarbs to France from Exeter. The Mk.VC is fairly rare in UK use - perhaps that should be "otherwise fairly rare". EPxxx were all Mk.VB "unless otherwise indicated" (STH). I did a quick scan of the serials and didn't find any C, but they may have been. Edited April 7, 2014 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 (edited) Graham, I think that "LR" in this context simply means that they were equipped to carry the slipper tank. This feature was being added at the same time that Supermarine was transitioning from b to c (though AR_ would be Westland). I've got a list from a memo saying which (Sup) serials are b/c, with/without for this transition period. The first Vcs went into service about Feb/Mar '42, some with and some without the tanks (only certain squadrons getting the "LR"s). Don't know about Westland's specifics, but after a late entry to building Spitfires - not their fault - they seem to incorporate changes quite quickly- thanks in part, perhaps, to a relatively low rate of production. I'm glad you reminded me of the clipped wings- I meant to look into that a bit, because Sept '42 does strike me as a bit sooner than I'd have expected to see them. I do think that these squadrons (or some of) flew a mix of bs and cs at this time, which seems to be an exception to the more typical rule of keeping a squadron on a particular type/sub-type. bob Edited April 7, 2014 by gingerbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 This is an extract from a 1941 set of painting instructions on undersides:- If Supermarine followed that, to the letter, the demarcation would certainly be curved; it's possible that the company got fed up with it, and went for a demarcation on the "panel" line, but I've never seen any request, on that subject, from them. Edgar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Re the demarcation line, does it matter that much when we have so much photographic evidence of applications that did vary. For modelling purposes going by photos should be good enough as clearly guidelines were not always adhered to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 A quick look at STH Mk.V chapter brought out three variations in the demarcation - the curve, along the panel line, and a straight overlap just onto the bottom. Aircraft from all three factories showed the simple panel line demarcation: tropical were often along the panel line but also showed the overlap and examples where the upper colours were brought down onto the sides of the filter. So yes go by the photo, if you've got one, but there doesn't seem to have been a standard that can be assumed in the absence of a photograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted April 7, 2014 Author Share Posted April 7, 2014 This is an extract from a 1941 set of painting instructions on undersides:- If Supermarine followed that, to the letter, the demarcation would certainly be curved; it's possible that the company got fed up with it, and went for a demarcation on the "panel" line, but I've never seen any request, on that subject, from them. Edgar Hi thanks for the pic of the instructions. cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted May 15, 2022 Author Share Posted May 15, 2022 (edited) On 4/4/2014 at 2:18 PM, Test Graham said: ......... can't be sure about two other types seen during the takeoff - grey Harvards or similar? (But why grey? I didn't think they were PR Spits...) ....... Hi did anyone figure out what the grey harvards refered to are ? cheers jerry Edited May 15, 2022 by brewerjerry typo correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackem01 Posted May 15, 2022 Share Posted May 15, 2022 (edited) Just watched this for the first time and I'm surprised at how scruffy the aircraft are. I always think I overdo weathering - apparently not. Edited May 15, 2022 by mackem01 Repetition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart3009 Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 Is it true that this footage was shot at raf culmhead(churchstanton) I’ve been through footage but can’t seem to pick out culmhead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted March 22, 2023 Author Share Posted March 22, 2023 7 hours ago, Stuart3009 said: Is it true that this footage was shot at raf culmhead(churchstanton) I’ve been through footage but can’t seem to pick out culmhead Hi I have only recognised exeter and harrowbeer when viewed in the past but there are other bits i didnt recognise cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 Hi, The fabric patches over the gunports, I also have seen footage on a Battle of Britain station with the erks peeling off self adhesive patches, so yes self adhesive was used. This Czech footage would on the original have been without the ghosted edges and artefacts, its a shame that someone has despoiled it, nothing worse than misuse of the quality compression slider, youtube doesnt require such compression, so maybe one day we will see it in original quality. Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted June 26, 2023 Author Share Posted June 26, 2023 Hi just a random bump from tbe depths just incase anyone new hadn't seen it cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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