Hurricane Mk IV asymmetrical loadouts.

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

I've found reports of several trials, undertaken at the request of the Air Ministry, and, though I've found a couple on tank + rockets, I've never found one on gun plus rockets, or gun + tank. It was found that the rockets tended to veer, slightly, and the aircraft needed careful trimming, with landing with the tank still attached needing care, but nothing major.

They also only referred to asymmetric loads, not loadouts (is there a loadin?)

Edgar

I also read something about rockets on one wing and a bomb on the other, is there any truth to this?

thanks

Mike

[Test Graham]

The ME red spinners were not merely a "belief" but authorised identity markings. There were to be carried, with a fin flash, on all aircraft in the North African theatre - US as well as British. Which is why you will see US aircraft carrying red/white/blue fin flashes, and P-40s (not just Kittyhawks) with red spinners. That a handful of units chose to disregard this is probably unavoidable. The rule was however limited to the North African campaign, so all sorts of colours can be seen in Italy.

Re SEAC Mk.IIc with bombs - yes, if it was a fighter bomber. The Mk.IIc was initially used as a conventional fighter, particularly as an interceptor in defense of Calcutta. There is an image of squadrons flying Mk.IIb in the Imphal during the campaign season, falling back to Calcutta when the monsoon comes and being re-equipped with Mk.IIc. This is at least simplified and probably just plain wrong. The Mk.IIc was seen as somewhat cumbersome because of its additional weight and rolling inertia - not what was needed against the Oscar. Some units apparently took out one pair of cannon - it is said that 28 Sq was denied permission to do this. Certainly the FR unit did but this may have been to allow a forward facing camera. Similarly the Mk.IIb are generally seen without the outer pairs of guns. If you are talking about a 1944/45 scheme aircraft, as in the Airfix kit, then assume bombs as normal. 35 Sq was, after all, a bomber previously, if that means anything.

Rockets with a bomb are very unlikely because they require completely different attack profiles, and were appropriate for some different targets. Bombs for bridges, for example. The Yugoslav book on their Spitfire squadron comments that losses were heavier than their partner Hurricane unit because of the need to overfly the target as opposed to the stand-off capability of the rockets. It might be interesting to know if that was reflected in the losses of the Typhoon units in Northern Europe, with its more severe flak.

[Nick Millman]

The ME red spinners were not merely a "belief" but authorised identity markings. There were to be carried, with a fin flash, on all aircraft in the North African theatre - US as well as British. Which is why you will see US aircraft carrying red/white/blue fin flashes, and P-40s (not just Kittyhawks) with red spinners. That a handful of units chose to disregard this is probably unavoidable. The rule was however limited to the North African campaign, so all sorts of colours can be seen in Italy.

I meant to imply no disbelief of that authorised practice which I am well aware of. What I meant was the belief that all spinners were invariably red as a consequence.

Nick

[Test Graham]

Like all rulings on markings and camouflage: they were invariable unless you have an specific example or examples showing otherwise. They are always fun for modellers.

I must admit this is also my approach to Sky undersides in the BoB, to mention but one...

[Super Aereo]

Hmm, are there Spitfire showing this scheme? I recall a colour photo showing this, or am I getting confused

You may be thinking about the IWM footage taken at Canne (Italy) in March 1945:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060019790

F.

[KevinK]

On the colour of prop spinners: 253 Sqn RAF was part of the same BAF wing as 6 Sqn. 253 used the spinner colour as a flight identification - A Flight used red, B Flight used blue.

The reason for the asymmetrical weapons load on 6 Sqn was fairly straightforward - they needed the extra fuel to get to the target and the rockets to attack it. This is not the trivial point it might seem, as the Hurricanes were the only RAF aircraft in the theatre - other than the Beaufighter - cleared to carry rockets, but didn't have the range on internal fuel to make the Adriatic crossing and penetrate far into Yugoslavia. Once Vis was secured, it was used first as a forward refuelling base and later as a base but the extra fuel was still needed for deeper penetration missions. The rocket units were indeed handed, so either port or stbd set could be fitted, as seen in the photos.

On the issue of clearance to carry rockets - The Spitfire hadn't had A&AEE clearance at that time, but when one of the Wing's Spitfire squadrons sent a detatchment to Greece at the time of the uprising, the Sqn Engineering Officer made a local mod to fit rockets which were used successfully, but the mod was not approved and removed on the Sqn's return to Italy.

Kevin

[Guest]

According to the Squadron book on the Hurricane did attempt one flight with rockets and cannon. When the cannon was fired the yaw was almost unrecoverable, further attempts were a abandoned. The quote on page 40 reads: "No. 184 squadron tried carrying rockets under one wing and a 40mm under the other, but the yaw effect created when the cannon was fired so severe that the rockets and rails broke loose from the wings." The section I read goes on about the different types of asymmetrical loads, none seemingly any type of real alternative.

Cheers

[Nick Millman]

Like all rulings on markings and camouflage: they were invariable unless you have an specific example or examples showing otherwise. They are always fun for modellers.

I must admit this is also my approach to Sky undersides in the BoB, to mention but one...

I'll need to familiarise myself more carefully with the curious rules hereabouts regarding the articulation of speculation as they seems to vary according to who is doing it. ;-)

Nick

[Test Graham]

Nick: But where would we be without speculation? Certainly modelling would be a lot less interesting, with so many subjects "closed off" because we cannot be certain of some detail. (Yes, you can always model whatever you like, I know....) I incline to the opinion that the only rule is to know when you are speculating and make that clear in what you say. Perhaps at times I haven't always been sufficiently clear, unlike your good self.

[Nick Millman]

Nick: But where would we be without speculation? Certainly modelling would be a lot less interesting, with so many subjects "closed off" because we cannot be certain of some detail. (Yes, you can always model whatever you like, I know....) I incline to the opinion that the only rule is to know when you are speculating and make that clear in what you say. Perhaps at times I haven't always been sufficiently clear, unlike your good self.

I agree. Here is what I originally speculated with regard to the apparently different coloured spinners in the photographs:-

"FWIW I wouldn't be surprised if the different spinner colours were flight colours."

I then cited an example - a first hand account relating to 274 Sqn. You then suggested that for this to be considered in violation of invariable rulings on red spinners I would have to have a specific example or examples showing otherwise which brought us full circle as I was referring to the photographs already shown here and speculating.

Hope that's clear enough.

Nick

[Test Graham]

Oh dear. if you wish to make things absolutely clear, then ok. What you said was "despite the belief in 'standard' red spinners..." I felt the word "belief" and the use of inverted commas around "standard|" was introducing considerable doubt and implying to the newcomer, at least, that red spinners were just another historical bar-story and clearly implying they were not 'standard'. I provided background that it was not just a 'belief'. I further argue that there is no room for any doubt about them being standard, in which I am following the majority of, if not all, sources on the subject. Nowhere did I suggest they were universal (though I believe that they very nearly were - in the desert not in Italy). Being standard is not the same thing as being universal. I did say in that same posting that disregarding this ruling was probably unavoidable, which would certainly fit your 274 Sq example and indeed was intended to do so. However, I felt that your phrase "flight colours were used on Desert Air Force and ME aircraft" was a bit too inclusive, implying such use was widespread and possibly even normal. The word 'inviolable' was introduced by yourself not me.

I hope this makes my position as clear as possible and see no need to further pursue this small difference between us.

[Nick Millman]

It was probably the word 'standard' that should have drawn your attention rather than 'belief', as in 'belief in standard red spinners' rather than 'belief in red spinners'. On reflection I probably should have used the word 'universal' instead and inserted 'some' into the statement that you took exception to. I did not mean to suggest that all Desert Air Force and ME squadrons used flight coloured spinners only that one example had been given by one who was there and that it might be relevant to the different coloured spinners seen in the photos here.

Original comment duly amended.

Nick

[Mark Mackenzie]

"Certainly planes in SEAC were delivered in Desert Scheme, and had the Middle Stone overpainted, and i can believe that Desert Scheme MkIV's ended up the same way, LF498 could be a candidate for this, possibly even with just Dark Green added. which is the Tropical Land Scheme?"

Troy: The term Tropical Land Scheme refers to the colour scheme "Dark Earth/Midstone" NOT "Dark Green/Midstone". This is proven beyond reasonable doubt in the corrected AMO 513/41. The terms Tropical Land Scheme and Desert Scheme are the same thing. This is the way it has always been.

[politicni komisar]

I think a Yugoslav (?) squadron was photographed with assymmetric loads, which would have been in the Balkan region. I agree one 40mm is unlikely- it would throw off the aim, and this was a specialty weapon anyway.

bob

Mostly common practice to Balkan Air Force Hurricanes of Yugoslav Partisan Squadron RAF and 6 sq VIS from this island long distance RP rocket mission

Need a fuel tank on left wing on right 4 RP rocket.

P.k

[politicni komisar]

You may be thinking about the IWM footage taken at Canne (Italy) in March 1945:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060019790

F.

Nice footage of 73 sq Spitfire IXe Y & end takeoff Italian Spitfire Vc

[politicni komisar]

Given the postings regarding possible variations in camouflage schemes, i wonder if my post get read carefully....

Claudio, 'interpretation' is the key word here. The books have some pretty pictures, but I'd not trust them.

Certainly planes in SEAC were delivered in Desert Scheme, and had the Middle Stone overpainted, and i can believe that Desert Scheme MkIV's ended up the same way, LF498 could be a candidate for this, possibly even with just Dark Green added. which is the Tropical Land Scheme?

But, operating over the Mediterranean I'd presume DFS would be a better scheme. Would they bother painting the bottom Azure blue?

Hmm, are there Spitfire showing this scheme? I recall a colour photo showing this, or am I getting confused

But, I'd suggest that

KZ188 in the pic above, the filter is soft shadow, note the high, bright sunlight. I think DFS with a Red Spinner, note the just visible upperwing C roundels, better seen on the plane in the background.

Also, note plane in top right background, showing assimetric load

Note, the 6 squadron was operating with Spitfire's from 73 sq from Prkos. I'd presume the photos are from the same session, and these are DFS.

I don't know, and as we only have B/W pictures, does anyone.

One point, note the pale appearance of the red in the roundels and spinner, and the dark appearance of the Blue, effect of some kind of filter to deal with bright sunlight, and would also make Ocean Grey appear darker [being a blue hued grey]

Were MkIV's actually supplied in Desert Scheme?

IID's certainly, but when the MKIV came in were many Hurricanes being built in Desert Scheme, or had the switch to just DFS [to ease production] come in as planes supplied to the Far East just had the Ocean Grey repainted in Dark Earth?

I don't know the answers to these, just pointing out possibilities.

T

EDIT ps

Again, assimetric load, but much softer light, no hard shadows.

Note the unusual proportions of the underwing roundel on plane in background, and then I looked again at this shot

Note lack of underwing roundels on leading plane, and non standard c type on 3rd plane back.

I need to eat and stop peering at these!

The picture Spitfire IXe 73 sq on is painted in dark green, ocean gray, medium gray sea. but interested on tail detail all Have serial number on small characters (6 "serijal) on black color.

Hurricane are also D.green, ocean gray, medium gray sea, sky or pre war red Spinners.

No desert scheme in this period

Im i know this research'm More Than 10 years this BAF Air Force

P.k

[Graham Boak]

If some of these Hurricanes are not in Desert scheme, then they are in "reversed colour" patterns. It is a bit of a coincidence that only these examples show such a high contrast between the uppersurface colours, even in photos where other aircraft have much less contrast. Whereas heavily faded Ocean Grey can look that light, such an old aircraft would also tend to look more scruffy.

I think the (admittedly limited) evidence presented above does imply the continued existence of the Desert scheme on some aircraft.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Graham Boak

[Troy Smith]

"Certainly planes in SEAC were delivered in Desert Scheme, and had the Middle Stone overpainted, and i can believe that Desert Scheme MkIV's ended up the same way, LF498 could be a candidate for this, possibly even with just Dark Green added. which is the Tropical Land Scheme?"

Troy: The term Tropical Land Scheme refers to the colour scheme "Dark Earth/Midstone" NOT "Dark Green/Midstone". This is proven beyond reasonable doubt in the corrected AMO 513/41. The terms Tropical Land Scheme and Desert Scheme are the same thing. This is the way it has always been.

My typo Mark

Should have read TEMPERATE Land Scheme, which was also used by SEAC with Med Sea grey undersides. Overpainting a desert scheme planes middlestone gets TLS, and I believe some Spitfires were finished like this in Italy?

The low contrast between upper colours is a noted feature of TLS in B/W photos.

Mostly common practice to Balkan Air Force Hurricanes of Yugoslav Partisan Squadron RAF and 6 sq VIS from this island long distance RP rocket mission

Need a fuel tank on left wing on right 4 RP rocket.

P.k

Hi PK, well, no, as the pic below CLEARLY show the load could be either way. I can't see it making any difference.

Note plane in background, 'V' is the other photo, and that is tank right RP left.

The picture Spitfire IXe 73 sq on is painted in dark green, ocean gray, medium gray sea. but interested on tail detail all Have serial number on small characters (6 "serijal) on black colour.

Hurricane are also D.green, ocean gray, medium gray sea, sky or pre war red Spinners.

No desert scheme in this period

Im i know this research'm More Than 10 years this BAF Air Force

P.k

Pre war red? As opposed to plain Dull Red?

Also, did not say Desert, but Desert finish planes with Middlestone overpainted to get Dark Green/Dark Earth over Azure Blue, this happened on SEAC aircraft.

The only picture of 73 sq Spitfire here is this one, and these look to have standard 8 inch serials on the bit of 'Z' visible.

But I am very happy to have a member who specialises in BAF research, but would like some documentation of claims.

cheers

T

[politicni komisar]

My typo Mark

Should have read TEMPERATE Land Scheme, which was also used by SEAC with Med Sea grey undersides. Overpainting a desert scheme planes middlestone gets TLS, and I believe some Spitfires were finished like this in Italy?

The low contrast between upper colours is a noted feature of TLS in B/W photos.

Section of refueling 73 sq Spitfires and defiance / ZADAR today Croatia and know for pictures from Different angle and serials little tail like he was on Spitfires on D-Day

im suppose this was D-Day veterans for engineering am sure.

Spitfire Mk.IXC, and MJ238 During war no arow on fuselage.

For color detail am in a lot of original and some Fragments and friend posesion

AIM colekt not part i 15Af sections of downed bombers (B-17,24,25, and Mustangs)

Before Christmas wil BE aut fos sale a very complete book about Partizan Hurricanes and Spitfires BAF Air Force with a lot of pictures and some first time public but only and (serbian -cyrillic)

Serbia and more details FOLLOWS late.

for spiners no dull red RAF color much common this bright red like Between war.

Hi PK, well, no, as the pic below CLEARLY show the load could be either way. I can't see it making any difference.

Note plane in background, 'V' is the other photo, and that is tank right RP left.

Pre war red? As opposed to plain Dull Red?

Also, did not say Desert, but Desert finish planes with Middlestone overpainted to get Dark Green/Dark Earth over Azure Blue, this happened on SEAC aircraft.

The only picture of 73 sq Spitfire here is this one, and these look to have standard 8 inch serials on the bit of 'Z' visible.

But I am very happy to have a member who specialises in BAF research, but would like some documentation of claims.

cheers

T

[politicni komisar]

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209459

[Troy Smith]

Section of refueling 73 sq Spitfires and defiance / ZADAR today Croatia and know for pictures from Different angle and serials little tail like he was on Spitfires on D-Day

im suppose this was D-Day veterans for engineering am sure.

Spitfire Mk.IXC, and MJ238 During war no arow on fuselage.

For colour detail am in a lot of original and some Fragments and friend posesion

AIM colekt not part i 15Af sections of downed bombers (B-17,24,25, and Mustangs)

Before Christmas wil BE aut fos sale a very complete book about Partizan Hurricanes and Spitfires BAF Air Force with a lot of pictures and some first time public but only and (serbian -cyrillic)

Serbia and more details FOLLOWS late.

for spiners no dull red RAF colour much common this bright red like Between war.

Hi

thanks for posting. I'm not sure if you are using auto translate or just basic English but quite hard to understand all you have written.

Section of refueling 73 sq Spitfires and defiance / ZADAR today Croatia and know for pictures from Different angle and serials little tail like he was on Spitfires on D-Day

im suppose this was D-Day veterans for engineering am sure.

Spitfire Mk.IXC, and MJ238 During war no arow on fuselage.

You have more photographs showing Spitfires with smaller serials?

For colour detail am in a lot of original and some Fragments and friend posesion

AIM colekt not part i 15Af sections of downed bombers (B-17,24,25, and Mustangs)

You mention US Aircraft, but you have parts of RAF types as well?

Before Christmas wil BE aut fos sale a very complete book about Partizan Hurricanes and Spitfires BAF Air Force with a lot of pictures and some first time public but only and (serbian -cyrillic)

Serbia and more details FOLLOWS late.

Are the photograph captions going to be in English?

Have you tried approaching another publisher to do an English version, as would have a wider possible readership, given many more people read English as a second language. or even just an English summary.

Any idea of price?

for spiners no dull red RAF colour much common this bright red like Between war.

OK, I'd say this screen grab shows this, what other evidence do you have ? The bright red for later on in the war?

Just this image shows what looks like Dull Red

thanks for the additional information.

[Troy Smith]

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209459

this photo?

Supermarine Spitfire Mark IXs of No. 281 Wing RAF are prepared for a sortie at Prkos, Yugoslavia, as the pilots confer before take off.

Apart from being in the same sequence of photos, is there a specific point about this picture?