Early Hurricane cockpit colours (as per Airfix instruction)

[Anders_Isaksson]

From what I have gathered the cockpit should be all interior green with unpainted tubular framework (referring to the Finnish Hurricane).
The MDF book indicates an all green cockpit (IIRC, don't have it accessible right now).

However, looking at the Airfix (kit 2067) instructions I get a bit confused.



Should 70 (Brick Red) actually be 78?
Should 156 (Grey) actually be 56?

It seems to me the above mentioned colors don't really belong in a Hurricane cockpit but then I am no expert.

Any thoughts?

Edited January 27, 2014 by Anders_Isaksson

[chuckb1]

Hi

I used these for my build and the build of my PCM Hurricane last year. Hope these help. I have done my PCM with considerable weathering as I wanted to capture it heavily used. When my confidence goes up a bit more will post up images of it. (I fear the rivet counters) The Hurricane seems to attract them

images sourced for research purposes only no breach of copyright intended

Brendan

Edited January 26, 2014 by chuckb1

[Anders_Isaksson]

Good pics, many thanks!

Certainly looks like an all green interior.

But still confused about the colour callouts in the Airfix instructions, guess they might be typos...

[Test Graham]

The red is unlikely to be a typo, but the primer on the headrest, elsewhere it could have been to replicate the red primer staining through the fabric. The Airfix Hurricane is a very early one: I've seen it suggested that the interior green was much more widely used later than it was prewar. I believe that the tubing was painted Aluminium - never bare metal - though earlier Hawker aircraft had the tubing in black.

[Anders_Isaksson]

Thanks Graham.

Do you mean that Humbrol 70 on the headrest represents the primer showing through the fabric? In that case it makes sense, although the effect might be a bit harsh.

Still, Im leaning towards an all green interior with aluminium tubing.

[Troy Smith]

HI Anders

There have been a few threads here on Hurricane internal colours.

The images Brendan kindly oposted are all of restored planes. the first image shows the plywood 'doghouse' well, this is later covered in fabric.

Worth noting that Hawker Restorations use aluminium for the tubework on their restorations.

The best example of an early Hurricane which has not been repainted is the Finnish one.

Photos show it with tubing painted with aluminium paint, as are the rest of the internals apart from the cockpit walls, including the seat. I don't think there was a photo of the inside of the metal panels just below the cockpit though [ the engine bay and gun bay panels are again aluminium inside]

The back panel Airfix refer to being 70 brick red is grey-green in the pics. The red dope bleeding through the fabric is well shown as well.

the best set of photos here are these - http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/52968-hurricane-mk1-cockpit-colour/page-2#entry742480

Hello!

Thought I would share some of the photos result of a recent visit to the Finnish Air Force museum at Tikkakoski, near Jyväskylä, Finland.
( http://www.airforcemuseum.fi/ ). These should fit well under the thread title.

Hurricane Mk I HC-452 was there partly dismantled for some preservation and cleaning work. Paints on the aeroplane are original with few exeptions. Cockpit starboard panel has reportedly been painted after some repairs and quite likely the swastika markings have been repainted. They were - or should have been - overpainted after the war when the change for the current FinnAF cocade was made. The overpainting was done also on planes which had been written off, there is photographic proof of that.


The HC-452 interior colours were well visible with the state of the airframe then. Let's start a short walkaround:

Cockpit panels were generally Interior Green and the framework painted aluminium.



Closer view of the cockpit. Note aluminum paint frames on the canopy and windshield.



Turtledeck seen from the opening on the port side. One of the museum workers said that the Interior Green inside the turtledeck is most likely to be nearest the original condition. Fabric interior colour is red dope.



Cockpit equipment on the port side.



Something for those who like to analyse colours with computers. Genuine Pantone fan page with samples of pure yellow, magenta, cyan and black. White is also provided with the page.



The seat has been painted with aluminium paint.



Finnish Hurricanes arrived without the seat armour and got it only later in their career. The colour of the installed Hurricane armour looks to be British Interior Green, but it's pedigree is unknown to me as is the origin of the armour (British or Finnish-made?).



Cowling panel interiors are also painted in aluminium.




Off to the radiator. The inside of the radiator tunnel is painted aluminium with some light blue overspray.



The radiator also has been painted in aluminium.




To the wing. HC-452 RAF serial was N2394.


Wing interior is also painted aluminium.




Some original RAF Dark Green has survived on the center wing along with the original RAF underside white. These are seen on the left on the area covered by the metal strip when wing panels are installed. Dark Green and Finnish green are quite close. The difference is less on the image than I remember seeing on the real life, though.
Pantone pure black, cyan, magenta and yellow samples are provided too.



I have not researched this aeroplane nor it's colours more than superficially. If you have more specific questions I think the best avenue is to contact the Finnish Air Force museum. Their homepage address is given above and their contact information is there, too. Thanks for the friendly museum personnell allowing to take these photos.

I hope this is of some use for someone,

Kari

this thread discuss internal colours http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234932926-hurricane-detailing-question/

photos in this post - http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234932926-hurricane-detailing-question/#entry1215032

At some point there was a change to interior grey green, or it may have varied betwen factories.

As folks don't always read the links...

Right, Aluminium cockpit tube. Hurricane IIB, Z5252, pulled from Russian lake.

see - http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/hurricane_Z5252/index.htm

aluminium engine bearers

there is another salvaged from Russia Hurricane series of pics also showing alu inner framework, which I couldn't find the walkround, will post link when I find it.

At some point there was a switch to grey green

internal framework appears grey-green here

Glad Kari pitched in and supplied links to the Finnish plane.

HTH

T

[Anders_Isaksson]

Thanks Troy!

Yes, Kari's pics of the FInnish Hurricane was the reference I mentioned to earlier.

I will keep to the all interior green cockpit but with lower cockpit walls in 56 instead of Airfix's suggested 156.

[Caerbannog]

Great info Troy!

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Quoted from the old posting of mine:

"Finnish Hurricanes arrived without the seat armour and got it only later in their career. The colour of the installed Hurricane armour looks to be British Interior Green, but it's pedigree is unknown to me as is the origin of the armour (British or Finnish-made?)."

The HC-452 armour is most likely not of British origin. The shape is different and the plates are curvaceous (see photo below). Those are possibly cut from armour plates from shot down Soviet bomber of Winter War. The armour plates are likely painted lately, some photos taken by a friend show the armour backside (at least) more like olive green. The rest of Finnish Hurricanes perhaps had similar plates, but they are most likely indigigeneous design. So caveat with these, more research is needed to be certain.

Cheers,

Kari

[chuckb1]

Nice one on the Finnish aircraft post, I am sure that I have seen these images before. Very good. I did the framework on mine in Aluminium and then weathered it from there.

[Edgar]

It's entirely possible that the idea is to show it as doped fabric-covered wood; something of which you might not be aware (but Hornby/Airfix are) is that early Hurricanes, with the two-blade propellor, could not have armour fitted, because the added weight brought the CoG too far aft (the Spitfire had the same problem, but circumvented it by adding lumps of lead to the front of the engine bearers, as can be seen in the Airfix 1/24 Mk.I.) It was this deficit that caused the frantic rush to fit a (heavier) 3-blade prop to the Hurricane, when it went into combat. The Spitfire was left to languish, with seat armour not being fitted until June 1940.

Edgar

[Anders_Isaksson]

It's entirely possible that the idea is to show it as doped fabric-covered wood; something of which you might not be aware (but Hornby/Airfix are) is that early Hurricanes, with the two-blade propellor, could not have armour fitted, because the added weight brought the CoG too far aft (the Spitfire had the same problem, but circumvented it by adding lumps of lead to the front of the engine bearers, as can be seen in the Airfix 1/24 Mk.I.) It was this deficit that caused the frantic rush to fit a (heavier) 3-blade prop to the Hurricane, when it went into combat. The Spitfire was left to languish, with seat armour not being fitted until June 1940.

Edgar

So that is the reason for Airfix Calling out Humbrol 70 for the headrest, good to know!

Great info, many thanks Edgar.

[Test Graham]

There doesn't seem to have been any surge to re-equip those Hurricanes in France still with the 2-blader. The 3-blade DH prop was fitted to production Hurricanes before the war. This was driven by the superior performance of the two-position propeller, with the Hurricane being first in line to get the even better constant speed Rotol because of its recognised greater need. I suspect you may be thinking of the July 1940 surge to fit constant speed units to DH propellers. As you point out for the Spitfire, rebalancing the aircraft for the armour could be done by adding forward ballast.

It could be argued that the last thing a Hurricane needed was extra weight, as the aft cg problem continued to Sea Hurricanes Mk.1s. These were not allowed to be fitted with the lighter Rotol prop because the heavier DH one was needed to balance the arrester gear. The problem was solved with the Hurricane Mk.II, because the longer engine had its centre of mass more forward.

[Edgar]

There doesn't seem to have been any surge to re-equip those Hurricanes in France still with the 2-blader. The 3-blade DH prop was fitted to production Hurricanes before the war. This was driven by the superior performance of the two-position propeller, with the Hurricane being first in line to get the even better constant speed Rotol because of its recognised greater need. I suspect you may be thinking of the July 1940 surge to fit constant speed units to DH propellers.

As far as possible I try not to go by thought, but by hard evidence, and the paper below doesn't show any lack of urgency, in fact it's quite the opposite, with Hurricanes in France being given priority for armour and V.P. airscrews.

[Test Graham]

Thanks for the information: however I stand by my comment that the 3-blade prop was already in service, both in the UK and in France, and that (as evidenced by such as the well-known Fighter Pilot by Paul Richey) the 2-blade prop continued in service for some time after the date of this memo. There is at least one photo of a captured (if largely destroyed) Hurricane still with the mounting for the 2-blade propeller in May. The frantic rush appears to have taken some time to work through to the aircraft concerned, perhaps not surprisingly in the circumstances. The fitting of rear armour to a Hurricane with a 2-blade prop could be balanced by the use of ballast, as on the Spitfire. Or indeed any aircraft, for any cg modification, as this was common practice. Difficulties are not impossibilities. It is obviously more convenient to combine the two modifications in one, but this must have been a target/hope rather than ways acheived. It is perhaps possible that these fighters with 2-blade props at a late date had no armour - and likely that that limited supplies of armour were fitted preferentially to those already with 3-blade props.

The plans for the improvements to the Hurricane's propellers were established well before the arrival of the requisite parts, as can be seen in several photographs of aircraft with the revised 2-part nose ring but retaining either/orboth of the venturi and 2-blade propeller, or indeed the DH 2-position propeller. This nose ring includes the small bumps to cover the vacuum pump (for instrumentation) on one side and the constant speed unit on the other. This is just part of the evidence for a long-term progression rather than a spur-of-the-moment action. The fitting of 3-blade props was not something invented to satisfy this cg problem with armour - it was already massively in hand. Thank you for the evidence that some of the supply had to be diverted to support the fitting of the armour, but this was secondary to the main programme.

[Edgar]

The fitting of rear armour to a Hurricane with a 2-blade prop could be balanced by the use of ballast, as on the Spitfire.

Not according to the Air Ministry, who said that the only alternative was to remove the flare tubes, and one would assume that they'd checked with Hawker, that this was so.

[Fazzman]

Just as a quick comment regarding your query on the red-coloured seat at the beginning of the first article here, and apologising for duplicating information maybe stated elsewhere in this string,  I believe that Airfix were referring to the red-brown 'Bakelite' material that the early seats were made from. I know that you see this information plastered all over Spitfire colour references, so I just wondered if maybe Airfix (rightly or wrongly) duplicated the instruction for their hurricane? Just a thought.

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, Fazzman said:

Just as a quick comment regarding your query on the red-coloured seat at the beginning of the first article here, and apologising for duplicating information maybe stated elsewhere in this string,  I believe that Airfix were referring to the red-brown 'Bakelite' material that the early seats were made from. I know that you see this information plastered all over Spitfire colour references, so I just wondered if maybe Airfix (rightly or wrongly) duplicated the instruction for their hurricane? Just a thought.

Look again, the instructions show the seat as 56, which is aluminium. 

AFAIK, Hurricanes had metal seats, painted aluminium dope, and later, post 1942, grey green,  as seen in the colour pics I posted, not the red brown compressed paper composite seen on some Spitfires.

HTH

[dalea]

The real question is:-

 

Is the cover to the "Dog-box" (which is fabric) directly behind the pilot's head fabric or not?

Three photos in this thread are relevant. In two of the photos it is not installed. In the Trop. one it is obscured.