IJN light grey color question

[Spitfires Forever]

I have a question regarding the very light grey painted on the early IJN used at the beginning of the war. From what I am able to gather the light grey had a slight green patina. Without opening the classic color can of worms, what is the best and most accurate color for not only an early model Zero but for the underside color assuming it is the same color. I am about to embark on a build of the Ki 84, so thusly my query. I figure Nick would know this back to front but I welcome all input.

Cheers

[D1fuN0]

Hi Spit Addict.

Try the Tamiya IJN colours, I believe the light grey they have is what you looking for, I think its TS 66 or around about that number.

Steve

[Troy Smith]

HI Randy

yes, Nick Millman is the chap for this.

one point, the Ki-84 is an ARMY fighter, the A6M is Navy. I think this makes a difference to paint.

Regarding the Ki-84, interesting post here on Nick's blog http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2013/11/hayate-thoughts.html

it was good to see that the beautiful but unattributed profiles on the box top of the Hayate Combo neatly juxtapose the two most typical schemes for the aircraft. The 51st Sentai subject (top) depicting the late-war factory applied scheme of olive brown with painted under surfaces and the earlier 'Depot' or field-applied scheme of dark green over natural metal for the 22nd Sentai subject, familiar from a well known colour photograph taken at Kimpo in Korea after the end of the war. It is surprising how many modellers still interchange the elements of those two schemes, depicting olive brown over natural metal or dark green over grey-green and whilst those choices could not be refuted absolutely they fall into the categories of 'less likely' or 'untypical'. When selecting a subject it is important to try to determine which scheme is most probable given date, unit, location and context but it is not always easy even from photographs and the presence of the anti-glare panel is not a reliable guide.

And this one on non-standard Ki-84 schemes

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2013/12/yet-more-hayate-thoughts-non-standard.html

And....

The early war Zero grey is the subject of much debate, when new it was described as amber-grey, but weather's out to a greyer shade.

I've read about t on j-planes, and it's hard to describe.

if you don't want to go mental mixing paint ... but if you do....

right, found this one

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?s=81a495375149868e42f5ba12a3222963&showtopic=26077#entry219803

No, pistachio green is not the correct color..it's far too green. The paint that Tamiya calls out (XF-76?) is not correct for either make of A6M2 Model 11 or 21. The correct english interpretation of the color is olive-grey and the absolute color changes between Mitsubishi and Nakajima built aircraft. The correct color has a distinct olive hue to it. I don't have the Japanese color reference at hand but Greg Springer has developed paint mixes for the Tamiya colors to accurately reflect the extant relics. Your chosen aircraft was built by Mitsubishi. If you want absolute accuracy, then you will have to mix paints to get the correct shade. To answer your question; yes, White Ensign Models Colourcoat paints are available online from White Ensign Models in the UK. Below, I've listed the Tamiya color mixes that will produce the correct color (Mitsubishi) of the zeros that flew over Pearl Harbor. These mixes were developed by Greg Springer and are absolutely based on relic evidence from crashed A6M2's that were evaluated at Pearl. Without further ado:

Mitsubishi Airframe Paint mix:

XF-2 (White) 100 drops
XF-8 (Yellow) 24 drops
XF-1 (Black) 11 drops
XF-7 (Red) 7 drops

You'll have to multiply the formula by 3 or 4 to get enough to airbrush the entire airframe (minus the control surfaces)

Mitsubishi Cloth Covered Control Surfaces:

XF-19 (Sky Grey) 105 drops
XF-49 (Khaki) 20 drops
XF-25 (Lt. Sea Grey) 15 drops

The formula above will yield enough paint to spray the cloth covered control surfaces the correct color.

The cowl on Mitsubishi aircraft will be a blue-black color, not X-18 as called out in the instructions.

CAVEAT: These colors are only for a Mitsubishi built aircraft and are not valid for a Nakajima built A6M2 Model 21.

This is the color that you'll end up with, see how the olive shows through in the first picture while in the second, it seems more green. The difference is the lighting...

Attached Images

IIRC though Tamiya XF-76 is a reasonable match for a faded IJN grey. I'm not sure about Nakajima paint either.

Nick did send me an email about Japanese paints, i'll ask if I can post here. This is more background.

It's an area i know far too little about, but am slowly learning. Apologies if any of the above is wrong.

HTH

T

[Guest]

HI Randy

yes, Nick Millman is the chap for this.

one point, the Ki-84 is an ARMY fighter, the A6M is Navy. I think this makes a difference to paint.

Regarding the Ki-84, interesting post here on Nick's blog http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2013/11/hayate-thoughts.html

And this one on non-standard Ki-84 schemes

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2013/12/yet-more-hayate-thoughts-non-standard.html

And....

The early war Zero grey is the subject of much debate, when new it was described as amber-grey, but weather's out to a greyer shade.

I've read about t on j-planes, and it's hard to describe.

if you don't want to go mental mixing paint ... but if you do....

right, found this one

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=26077#entry219803

IIRC though Tamiya XF-76 is a reasonable match for a faded IJN grey. I'm not sure about Nakajima paint either.

Nick did send me an email about Japanese paints, i'll ask if I can post here. This is more background.

It's an area i know far too little about, but am slowly learning. Apologies if any of the above is wrong.

HTH

T

[Seawinder]

I have a question regarding the very light grey painted on the early IJN used at the beginning of the war. From what I am able to gather the light grey had a slight green patina. Without opening the classic color can of worms, what is the best and most accurate color for not only an early model Zero but for the underside color assuming it is the same color. I am about to embark on a build of the Ki 84, so thusly my query. I figure Nick would know this back to front but I welcome all input.

Cheers

As Troy said, the undersurface color for a Ki-84 was not the same as the overall color of early Zeros. Maybe close, but different. FWIW:

1. My recipe for the early war Zero color (often referenced as close to FS 26350 or secondarily 34201) is a 50-50 mix of Model Master (enamel) SAC Bomber Tan (itself matched to 34201) and German RLM 02, lightened to tasted with white.

2. Many late-war Ki-84s had topsides (and perhaps cockpits) painted in JAAF #7, which was an olive drab. Nick Millman describes it thus: "JAAF # 7 (later 1-1) was similar to US Olive Drab and had the same ancestor in the British PC10 (Protective Covering 10) developed during the First World War and imported by the Japanese Army with the Sopwith Pups. One of the principal pigments for this colour was natural ochre from iron oxide ... The closest FS value to both extremes of the # 7/(1-1) range is 33070. It is a little too green for the brown end of the range and not quite green enough at the green end. FS 34088 is also sometimes given as an approximate match to the median value."

From what I've read, the undersurface color for these planes was made by lightening #7 with white, so that's the route I took for the one I built. The key is obtaining/mixing a shade that pleases you for the #7 and going from there.

Cheers,

Pip

Edited January 8, 2014 by Seawinder

[Navy Bird]

Go to Nick's blog, and buy his reference booklet on painting the early Zero. Best nine quid you'll ever spend.

Cheers,

Bill

[Guest]

Thanks guys, I don't know what I was thinking, I knew the KI 84 was JAAF just like its predecessor but had what I like to call a "brain fart" and wasn't thinking clearly (just getting old I guess). Anyway, I was just assuming that the Japanese had some MAP or controlling central authority that required designated uniform colors, meaning the light grey was standard for both Zeros and the underside color for JAAF, and later IJN aircraft. I wonder if I can use the Testors MM light aircraft grey then use a tad bit of the other colors needed, or maybe just go with the Tamiya color and trust it to luck? It's never easy is it? I was looking at some of the Planes of Fame Japanese aircraft. The Judy and Raiden were both sprayed in an almost dark bluish green with a very light grey bottom. The crashed Betty bomber was in its original color of a dark tan/light red brown, it had the white bar with the rising sun in the middle. Was it possibly a training aircraft based out of the home islands? The tail had the number 50 on it as well as some numbers in yellow below that number. Their KI 84 is in an olive drab color with the light grey undersides. By the way, they mounted the swing arm and bomb on the Judy, a very sleek aircraft. Well I could go on and on, so thanks again for the help gents.

Cheers

[JackG]

Still on the topic of IJN grey colour, when did this colour become standard, as am wondering if the Claude and Nakajima A4N1 were at some point finished in this colour?

regards,

Jack

[Nick Millman]

The 'amber grey' special paint for light metals was introduced with the Zero as a result of corrosion experience with Claude and developments brought with imported German types like the He112. One might consider it as the "Japanese RLM 02"and just like that paint there are various perceptions as to its character.

Claude went through several finish evolutions, mainly due to corrosion issues that emerged with its first operations off China during the north-east monsoon of 1937. The first examples were natural metal, then brown and green camouflage was applied briefly in China, then either an anodising film or clear varnish was applied over the natural metal giving a reportedly "gold" effect and finally aluminium pigmented paint was applied overall. It has not been confirmed whether those operational Claude still in service during the Pacific War (after Dec 41) were re-finished in the special paint for light metals applied to the Zero. There are very few photographs of them and not clear enough to tell.

A4N was generally finished in aluminium dope or green and brown camouflage over light grey. The metal panels are referenced as "silver" in Japanese sources but whether this was actually polished metal, aluminium paint or, just possibly, light grey paint as per FAA aircraft is not clear.

Nick

PS A couple of other aspects worth mentioning for anyone planning to build an early Zero. The paint was high quality, lustrous - semi-gloss when new or well maintained - skilfully applied over an overall red oxide primer coat which begins to show if the paint surface is severely abraded. The 'salt treatment' or huge patches of flaked paint revealing natural metal were not typical. As the paint oxidised and chalked it became more matt and greyish but the paint surfaces of carrier and home-based aircraft tended to be better maintained than shore based aircraft in the islands so check your references.

[Seawinder]

Thanks guys, I don't know what I was thinking, I knew the KI 84 was JAAF just like its predecessor but had what I like to call a "brain fart" and wasn't thinking clearly (just getting old I guess). Anyway, I was just assuming that the Japanese had some MAP or controlling central authority that required designated uniform colors, meaning the light grey was standard for both Zeros and the underside color for JAAF, and later IJN aircraft. I wonder if I can use the Testors MM light aircraft grey then use a tad bit of the other colors needed, or maybe just go with the Tamiya color and trust it to luck? It's never easy is it? I was looking at some of the Planes of Fame Japanese aircraft. The Judy and Raiden were both sprayed in an almost dark bluish green with a very light grey bottom. The crashed Betty bomber was in its original color of a dark tan/light red brown, it had the white bar with the rising sun in the middle. Was it possibly a training aircraft based out of the home islands? The tail had the number 50 on it as well as some numbers in yellow below that number. Their KI 84 is in an olive drab color with the light grey undersides. By the way, they mounted the swing arm and bomb on the Judy, a very sleek aircraft. Well I could go on and on, so thanks again for the help gents.

Cheers

Hi S.A.

I'll stand by what I posted above: for the undersides of a Ki-84 you want a tannish-greenish gray, not a true gray. Try taking some US Olive Drab, add white to it, and see what you get. It'll be fairly similar to the "amber gray" of early war Zeros.

[Guest]

Hi S.A.

I'll stand by what I posted above: for the undersides of a Ki-84 you want a tannish-greenish gray, not a true gray. Try taking some US Olive Drab, add white to it, and see what you get. It'll be fairly similar to the "amber gray" of early war Zeros.

May as well, and if it doesn't look right (like I would know) I can use another color, and that way I can continue to use the enamels I am so used to. Thanks mate.

Cheers

[JackG]

Nick, thanks for all that - quite awesome! Interesting to read that a few Claudes were still flying off the Shoho during the battle of the Coral Sea.

I'll have to wait and see what decals are available in the kit box, and take it from there.

regards,

Jack

Edited January 9, 2014 by JackG

[tipper]

Guys

Is Gunze #128 a good match for IJN light gray? I've a Hasegawa 21 Zero and this is what their instructions recommend. And would i be right to assume that this is the same gray of the green topside/gray bottom scheme of the 52 models?

Tipper

[occa]

Nevermind

Edited January 13, 2014 by occa

[Nick Millman]

Guys

Is Gunze #128 a good match for IJN light gray? I've a Hasegawa 21 Zero and this is what their instructions recommend. And would i be right to assume that this is the same gray of the green topside/gray bottom scheme of the 52 models?

Tipper

128 is Army Grey-Green (Hai Ryoku Shoku 灰緑色 - literally ash green colour). Hasegawa recommend it now because it is deemed the closest colour in their range to Tamiya XF-76 which is their 'new' colour for the Zero and Hasegawa do not recommend Tamiya colours in their kits for obvious reasons. It is further away from the original amber grey factory paint colour than XF-76 which in turn is more typical of an oxidised and weathered paint surface. It might be considered by some to provide a reasonable out of the bottle representation of “scale colour” on a moderately weathered aircraft but lacks the distinct amber grey tone of the original paint and is a tad too green for the weathered paint.

It comes down to convenience and personal choice as there are no OOB paints that really nail the factory colour hence the Tamiya mixes cited above. The easiest mix to approximate the original factory colour using Gunze paints is a 50/50 combination of H70 RLM 02 and H336 Hemp. The degradation model for the paint surface can be seen here:-

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2011/12/zero-paint-degradation-schematic-models.html

Nick