All The spitfire questions you want to ask here

[Troy Smith]

I'm planning to build John Dundas's Mk.Ia X4586 as it was during the battle with Helmut Wick. All depictions that I've seen are for plain Sky undersides without roundels - but on 28 November 1940 would it not have had a black port wing and roundels?

from production listing http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p015.html

X4586 Ia 1195 EA MIII FF 29-9-40 39MU 30-9-40 609S 'PR-O' 8-10-40 Shot down by Bf109 SW of Isle of Wight 28-11-40 FH37.55 F/Lt J C Dundas DFC killed

Give it's date of FF, and factory roundel painting reintroduced in August [Ducimus says 18th Aug] I'd suggest this would have standard 50 inch underwing roundels.

[maltadefender]

Brilliant, thanks Troy and Edgar.

Looks like I'm going on roundel hunt come what may!

Edited February 27, 2015 by maltadefender

[Max Headroom]

Over on the Hurricane questions thread, it has now been revealed that Mk. IIc LF363 post war wore an 'Ice Blue' scheme for a while. This got me thinking about Spitfire XVI SL721 and its more famous light blue scheme. Does anyone know if the colours were related, as it seems odd to have two semi retired fighters flying in a decidedly non standard scheme.

Trevor

[Graham Boak]

I think Ice Blue describes a much lighter colour than the more Royal Blue of SL721. Remember that there was also white, black and pink Spitfire Mk.XVIs around at this time.

Re the Night wing underside. James Goulding dates this to 27th November 1940 in his Ducimus volume, Bowyer simply saying December. The well-known photos of Tuck leading 257 Sq are dated by Mason to November in the Profile, but by Rawlings to January in Fighter Squadrons. Could this be an example of local (in this case Fighter Command) introducing a scheme in advance of the Air Ministry documentation? The AMO of December 12th is a more general description of colours for all aircraft, not specifically directed at this black wing.

[Mark12]

I think Ice Blue describes a much lighter colour than the more Royal Blue of SL721. Remember that there was also white, black and pink Spitfire Mk.XVIs around at this time.

I can account for all over White, Black, Light Blue, Blue/Grey Mk XVI's but I am wracking my brain on a Pink Mk XVI.

PeterA

[Graham Boak]

Maybe it's my brain being racked...

[Sky Pilot]

Some time ago I saw, in one of the BM threads, a reply containing an official-looking drawing which showed the path of the pilot's seatbelt/harness through a slot in the armour plate behind the cockpit seat - can find that reply now? - NAY! I believe that it was sent by one of the Spitfire aficionados - they know who I mean Does anyone know where I might find it.

I am hoping to fit a setbelt/harness in the cockpit of the "new" Airfix Mk Vb Spit using one of the belts supplied in the Eduard RAF Seatbelts PE kit (49006) which contains two types of belt. One has holes in the downstraps, the other has none. My problem is which of the two types supplied is correct for the Vb Spit Any advice will be appreciated.

[Doug Rogers]

Post #895, page 45 of this thread? Is that the one?

[Sky Pilot]

Post #895, page 45 of this thread? Is that the one?

Yes Doug. It's the one - THANKS. How I missed it I don't know.

When I originally saw it I thought there was something odd. It shows one of the paths for the seatbelt was through a slot in the armour behind the pilot's shoulders to a securing point further aft. The alternative path was over the back of the seat and then down to a securing point at the bottom of the seat. Another possibility is a composite belt which is a combination of these two. Any ideas ?

I have bought the Eduard PE seatbelts set EDP49006 but am not sure if this is appropriate for the Vb. I have also been looking at the Eduard seatbelts set ED49062 - would this be a better choice ? Perhaps someone could tell me which of these would be appropriate for the Vb.

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Ok - so to start a new line of questioning - about the extended wingtips as seen on Mk VII's and Mk VIII's.

In ref to the new Eduard Mk VIII which has these rather nicely moulded extended wingtips - did they have lights in there leading edges?

Some pics I look at seem to show a rectangular light set into the leading edge at the base of the extension, others seem not to. So whats the deal. The Eduard kit doesn't have any lights.

Jonners

[gingerbob]

At least some did, and as you say they are set in, unlike the normal tips. Don't know if they were deleted somewhere along the way.

bob

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

At least some did, and as you say they are set in, unlike the normal tips. Don't know if they were deleted somewhere along the way.

bob

Wow - Rapid-Bob-Answers

So I guess now we need to know or find out the why's and when's

Jonners, still looking for a code for the extended wing 4 cannon armed Mk VIII seen at the end of Ospreys Late marque Spitfire Aces book ( An Ossie based one)

[Edgar]

It might have been CRC; there has been talk that Caldwell, at some time, had a four-cannon VIII.

[JOAN]

Hi,

Looking again in my silver prints collection I made a close up on the grand classic from Charles Sims / Aeroplane neg # 39345 and had some questions :

- what could be the vertical white line just in front of the cockpit ?

- what could be the colour of the "blinding" / masking tape on guns ?

The rivets on the leading edge are new to me...

Many thanks for your answers.

olivier

[Graham Boak]

The Spitfire has a gap at the leading edge where the upper and lower panels come together, which was then filled and smoothed. Not a particularly good idea but forced on the designers by the difficulty of manufacturing a suitable nose profile with the thin wing. These rivets are presumably where the panels are attached to the substructure. They will be countersunk flush-headed, so it is surprising to see them so prominent.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Graham Boak

[Mark12]

Ok - so to start a new line of questioning - about the extended wingtips as seen on Mk VII's and Mk VIII's.

In ref to the new Eduard Mk VIII which has these rather nicely moulded extended wingtips - did they have lights in there leading edges?

Some pics I look at seem to show a rectangular light set into the leading edge at the base of the extension, others seem not to. So whats the deal. The Eduard kit doesn't have any lights.

Jonners

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

It might have been CRC; there has been talk that Caldwell, at some time, had a four-cannon VIII.

Now thats intriguing! the book mentions Eric Gibbs & 54 sqn

Jonners

[Graham Boak]

As the Wing Commander, Caldwell was in a position to fly anything interesting that turned up.

[Edgar]

Judging by the paint loss on the front of the radiator of SN-M, it's doubtful if the Squadron carried out any retouching, and it probably predates the employment of Aircraft Finishers.

Also, filling and smoothing the seams and rivet "divots," on the wings' leading edges, was not discussed until August 1942, was not planned to start until mid-September, and would only be on airframes painted with synthetic paint, not cellulose.

Canvas patches were not 100% red; maybe an erk decided to make it look pretty for the photographer, although they might still have had some of the old covers (which just filled the muzzle holes) left to use up.

[PhantomBigStu]

long shot but anyone got a picture of the back of the box on the airfix spitfire VB 1/72 A68004 released a few years ago, managed to chuck my away before I'd finished the model

[Graham Boak]

Keeping the leading edges smooth and clean would (certainly should) be part of the normal procedures. However these rivets are not generally visible, nor would normal wear and tear result in quite such neat clean symmetrical appearance as in post 964. I wonder how many other photos show this so clearly? I recall the close-up of Barnham's Spitfire on Malta, which shows a distinctly grungy join/gap but not such obvious rivets?

[gingerbob]

I've definitely seen other shots where the (some) rivets are visible, but that's as far as my knowledge goes.

bob

[Peter Roberts]

Jon, regards the 4-cannon Spitfire VIII, there is another photo of a 54 Squadron (RAF) 4-cannon VIII in an old Kookaburra book. If the same plane, it looks to be in overall foliage green with sky blue lower surfaces (RAAF colours).

Sorry, no codes, but 54 Squadron had 'DL' as their Squadron code. There is some conjecture as to whether this was in the prescribed sky blue, or light grey (msg?). They typically had the aircraft code letter in white. The style of lettering was a squared off type of font, not rounded.

Note the white leading edges to the wings.

It may be worth a post over on Aussie modeller to see if anyone has details of the planes flown by Gibbs?

PR

[Daniel Cox]

Hi All,

Just a quick note regarding the appearance of the gun port patches on SN-M, the same usually happens to the Temora Aviation Museum Spitfire VIII whenever it is flown through rain.

Before

During

After

All pictures Daniel Cox

Cheers,

Daniel.

[Magpie22]

"Jonners, still looking for a code for the extended wing 4 cannon armed Mk VIII seen at the end of Ospreys Late marque Spitfire Aces book ( An Ossie based one)"

"It might have been CRC; there has been talk that Caldwell, at some time, had a four-cannon VIII. - Edgar"

"Now thats intriguing! the book mentions Eric Gibbs & 54 sqn - Jonners"

The aircraft on page 79 of ‘Late Marque Spitfire Aces’ had nothing to do with Squadron Leader Eric Gibbs or Group Captain Clive Caldwell. The photo was taken in August / September 1944, shortly after the aircraft was modified at No. 7 RSU.

Gibbs had left No. 54 Squadron before it re-equipped with the Mk.VIII, so there is no way it could have been his aircraft. No 7 RSU was attached to No. 1 Fighter Wing Commanded by Group Captain Jeffrey. Caldwell was Wing Commander of No. 80 Fighter Wing which had No. 9 RSU attached to it. It is unlikely that he would have had an aircraft modified by No. 7 RSU.

In June 1944, Headquarters, North Western Area, (which commanded No. 1 Wing and No. 80 Wing, among others), requested permission to fit extended wing tips to Spitfire LF.VIII aircraft. They stated that there was a shortage of spares of the standard wing tip, a number of which had been damaged in accidents. They held stores of the “pointed wing tip” for the “new type aircraft which will be received later”. Presumably, the latter comment referred to the forthcoming HF.VIII Spitfires, which the RAAF believed would have extended wing tips.

There is some speculation as to whether there was a real shortage of standard wing tips or whether the signal was a ruse to get approval to fit the tips on one or more aircraft for local trials. Technical Branch advised that the extended wingtips could be fitted at HQ NWA’s discretion. They also advised that the front-spar attachment fitting and attachment bolt differed for each wingtip type, and the work would have to be carried out by an RSU, according to Modification Order No. 1002. The job of changing wing tips was not the simple unbolt / re-bolt operation suggested by some authors.

I believe that the aircraft in that photo was indeed from No. 54 Squadron but not Gibbs’ aircraft. The only other photo I have, (which came from an ex 54 Sqn member), would tend to indicate that it did not carry squadron codes, although I cannot be certain of that as the aircraft is under a camouflage net.

Caldell did have a four-cannon armed Spitfire VIII. It was A58-484, CR-C, at Morotai in early 1945. It only carried the fit for a short time. By this time it was obvious that the Yanks weren't going to let the Aussies anywhere near the real fighting and that the Spits would have to be used in the close support role. At this time they had not been fitted to carry under-wing bomb racks, (the center-line station was normally required for a drop tank), and Caldwell was looking at ways to increase the Spitfire's hitting power against buildings and shipping. The RAAF were already experimenting with arming their Spits with two 0.5" Brownings in place of the 0.303" weapons, but this mod was slow in coming. Caldwell dropped the four-cannon idea as he thought the handling of the aircraft was so degraded as to make the aircraft too dangerous at low level for the average pilot.

Magpie22