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Driver66

Gnat smoke system

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Does anyone have a picture of the smoke system used on both Yellowjacks and Red Arrows Gnats.

Are they different from those on preserved examples?

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Excellent,

Would a Yellowjacks gnat be the same? Do you know why there are 4 pipes?

Can see it is a different system to the preserved yellowjack gnat.

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Without hijacking my own thread, have airfix released the new gnat in red arrows colours yet?

I have just realised a yellow gnat without a red one is just wrong.

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Just a small aside........

When the Red got their Hawks, they had trouble making smoke with their existing formula for the coloured diesel as used on the Gnat.

Apparently, because the Adour turbofan had a cooler exhaust than the Orpheus turbojet, it would not make smoke.

After a change in formula, they eventually got it to work on the Hawk.......

Ken

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Excellent,

Would a Yellowjacks gnat be the same? Do you know why there are 4 pipes?

Can see it is a different system to the preserved yellowjack gnat.

The reds had 4 because of the use of dye to make coloured smoke

Apparently, because the Adour turbofan had a cooler exhaust than the Orpheus turbojet, it would not make smoke.

That is why the Frecce and Patrouille smoke trails are more vibrant and deeper in colour, because their engines burn hotter

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Sorry to high jack this thread but I have often wondered if the red arrows gnats and the hawks ever had a photo shoot with both types in the same picture,a sort of out with the old and in with the new sort of thing.

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Sorry to high jack this thread but I have often wondered if the red arrows gnats and the hawks ever had a photo shoot with both types in the same picture,a sort of out with the old and in with the new sort of thing.

HawkGnat.jpg158543_800.jpg

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HawkGnat.jpg158543_800.jpg

XS111 is civilian operated, and doesn't wear the final Gnat scheme, 'XR540' is the team 'gate guard' I believe and photographed with the current Hawk scheme. I think that there were some publicity shots done in 1979 that would show the changeover schemes together.

Peter.

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Pete

There were indeed publicity shots. They are on http://aerobaticteams.net/red-arrows-gnat-gallery2.html. I couldn't link the relevant pictures from there onto here. There is one shot with the Gnats flying with one Hawk, and others of the Hawk on the ground whilst the team flyover it. Only 8 Gnats though.

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Pete

There were indeed publicity shots. They are on http://aerobaticteams.net/red-arrows-gnat-gallery2.html. I couldn't link the relevant pictures from there onto here. There is one shot with the Gnats flying with one Hawk, and others of the Hawk on the ground whilst the team flyover it. Only 8 Gnats though.

Some nice pics there, especially photo 44! Thanks for posting.

Cheers,

Carl.

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Some nice pics there, especially photo 44! Thanks for posting.

Cheers,

Carl.

They are indeed. Photo 44 was taken at Kemble. That is Kemble Wood in the background. Photo 37 is the team over my home town of Cirencester. They are directly over my house where I was living at the time. I would have been no more than 8 years old. I have to say I love seeing pictures of the Red Arrows in their Gnat days. I get a huge nostalgic buzz from it, especially if taken at Kemble

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Think you right there Tim. 29 and 31 were taken over Chalford, at the bottom of Cowcombe Hill. I think Kemble is about 5 miles due south from there

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Just came across a photo of the '65 Red Arrows at the top of a loop. These are the same airframes as the '64 Yellowjacks.

They have 2 pipes only. Later, when the coloured smoke came into use, the system obviously changed to 4 pipes.

If it helps,

Tony

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Think you right there Tim. 29 and 31 were taken over Chalford, at the bottom of Cowcombe Hill. I think Kemble is about 5 miles due south from there

The Reds regularly used to do practice displays over Aston Down which is about 5 miles to the North of Kemble.

Peter

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Think you right there Tim. 29 and 31 were taken over Chalford, at the bottom of Cowcombe Hill. I think Kemble is about 5 miles due south from there

Wow - my primary school stomping ground is just off that shot! Thanks for that link.

Little red planes in the skies all the time - and a BIG WHITE and VERY LOUD triangle, those were the days!

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The Yellowjacks only have two pipes because they only had the 'White' smoke.

When the Team changed to the Arrows one of the Mods done to them was to install two Stainless Steel tanks in the ceiling of theRear Fuselage, and this was initially for the Red and Blue dyes for the Coloured Smoke System. This added two more pipes.

They quickly changed their thinking to allow each side of the Display to have a single colour, so that the crowd only saw a Red, White and Blue colour stream in the correct manner.

The only other Mod that was done,(later), to the Smoke System was to install a four way cock in the selection system so that when the smoke was selected 'OFF', a ram air effect pushed all of the dye out of the pipes, and we had a clean 'kill' of the smoke trail.

You can see the 'Scoops', I believe, on the A/C at RAF Cosford, where they can be seen under the Rear Fuselage, at the Hobson Unit access panel, (this is the panel under the rear fuselage, just forward of the Tail Bumper!).

By the way, the white smoke was only 'Derv', Diesel Fuel, which was ejected into the jet efflux where it simply vaporised. The coloured smoke was a bit different; this was an industrial dye that ICI (then) supplied and our 'Dye Team' got themselves, (and us too), covered in Dye as they mixed it with Diesel and pumped it into the A/C.

Of the colours, the Red was easiest on one's skin. If you had a snag on the system - as after you had cleaned yourself off (with neat Trichlorethelene - this was before the Health and Safety Police were around!), it just looked like 'suntan' on your skin but the Blue, which looked like 'Biro' ink, made you look, and feel, dirty for a few days after you had fixed the snag!

Cheers, Brian

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Hi all

I've worked at Kemble for quite a few years and I believe the Reds were originally sent to Little Rissington (near Stow on the Wold)? However the weather there was poor due to its height (I think it's one of the highest airfields in England) and so they transferred to Kemble.

There are many, many stories, not totally apocryphal I believe, of their antics at Kemble, such as low passes down the runway.......and the taxiways.......whilst personnel were crossing making them dive headlong to the ground........today Kemble is still proud to be called the "Home of the Reds"

Ref Aston Down, this is a satellite to Kemble and is to the west. The airfields look very similar and in more recent years there have been many instances of inbound GA aircraft arriving at Aston Down by mistake. When I worked in the Tower at Kemble for a short while some years ago a helicopter pilot reported by RT that he was inbound, (couldnt see him), finals (still couldnt see him!) and eventually hovering outside the Tower and asked why we STILL couldn't we see him.......OOOPS!

Re smoke. Diesel fuel is a no no nowadays due to environmental laws. In GA aerobatics it has been replaced with a light oil from the food industry used in industrial bakeries etc for lubricating machines, Shell version is called "Ondina". I don't know what the military use.

Best

TonyS

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The Reds regularly used to do practice displays over Aston Down which is about 5 miles to the North of Kemble.

Peter

As Chalford is at the bottom of the hill that Aston Down is on, that will explains why. Cheers

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