Captured Butcher Bird [END - SEE RFI]

[wellsprop]

My next project...

I have no info at all on this aircraft, all I know is she must have been caught by 41sqn before being repainted and havibg raf markings slapped on. Unusually, I couldnt find ANYTHING via google! Anyone got any info on this curious bird?


Note: I don't own this image, I also don't know who owns the copyright as the website it was on didnt mention

Regards,
Ben

Edited January 3, 2014 by wellsprop

[Troy Smith]

HI Ben

in Volume 4 of 2nd TAF books, page 732, the above photo is reproduced, along with a pic above, captioned

"Bill Stowe of 41 sq takes Fw1980A-8 'Red 1' for a test flight. it is believed to be the same aircraft that was repainted in 41 sq markings as 'EB-?'

The original code '1' is visible under the '?'

So the colours are likely to be the original German ones, the coloured nose ring seems to have been added as well. The pic in the book in German markings is of the port side, as opposed to the one above.

and...quick look in the Fw 190 Volume 3, same pic as above, but not the other in the 2nd TAF book. The Fw190 describes it a a F-9 of an unidebtfied Schlachtgruppe before being captured and painted at Copenhagen/Kastrup.

Interesting the Fw190 book says it has been repainted in RAF Dk green/Ocean grey....but, if so, why is the '1' still there?

also, the the port side pic the camo could kind of match up with British pic, so it may just be one of those funny late war 190 schemes. Does not look like any RAF disruptive camo pattern, so I'm inclined o think it's the original german paint....that could well be dark green 82 [or is it 83 now?] and grey 75 over 76..

Note the dark rudder. looks like a replacement

The scheme rang a bell,

seen some not dissimilar markings on a Fw190F-8 that escaped to Sweden from SG.3

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/Fw-190F-SG3.3-%28M+I%29/pages/Focke%20Wulf-Fw-190F8-III.SG3-%28M+I%29-Kurland-Sweden-1945-01.html

Chris Thomas is one of the authors of the 2ndTAF book, and a member, he might know more, or you might want to check the LEMB as well.

HTH

T

PS on LEMB

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6649

if you can't get to the page, these quotes may help

I recognised this picture when I saw it as it was in a collection of old Aeroplane Monthly magazines I picked up recently. In the August 92 issue, on page 60, this picture is captioned as follows: "The ultimate ignominy. A German prisoner of war applies an RAF roundel to a captured Focke-Wulf 190 at Vaerlose near Copenhagen in June 1945. I don't know if the pictue you posted was cropped or verbatim from Jet & Prop. The Aeroplane monthly picture shows a bit more on both sides of the plane.

and

All Fw190 found at Vaerlöse belonged to 14/SG151 or Schiesschule der Luftwaffe. This Fw190 never left Denmark. It is noticed at the scrap heap in Vaerlöse 1946!

I've never heard of 14/SG151, and the other book says Kastrup, so maybe a red herring..

[wellsprop]

HI Ben

in Volume 4 of 2nd TAF books, page 732, the above photo is reproduced, along with a pic above, captioned

"Bill Stowe of 41 sq takes Fw1980A-8 'Red 1' for a test flight. it is believed to be the same aircraft that was repainted in 41 sq markings as 'EB-?'

The original code '1' is visible under the '?'

So the colours are likely to be the original German ones, the coloured nose ring seems to have been added as well. The pic in the book in German markings is of the port side, as opposed to the one above.

and...quick look in the Fw 190 Volume 3, same pic as above, but not the other in the 2nd TAF book. The Fw190 describes it a a F-9 of an unidebtfied Schlachtgruppe before being captured and painted at Copenhagen/Kastrup.

Interesting the Fw190 book says it has been repainted in RAF Dk green/Ocean grey....but, if so, why is the '1' still there?

also, the the port side pic the camo could kind of match up with British pic, so it may just be one of those funny late war 190 schemes. Does not look like any RAF disruptive camo pattern, so I'm inclined o think it's the original german paint....that could well be dark green 82 [or is it 83 now?] and grey 75 over 76..

Note the dark rudder. looks like a replacement

The scheme rang a bell,

seen some not dissimilar markings on a Fw190F-8 that escaped to Sweden from SG.3

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/Fw-190F-SG3.3-%28M+I%29/pages/Focke%20Wulf-Fw-190F8-III.SG3-%28M+I%29-Kurland-Sweden-1945-01.html

Chris Thomas is one of the authors of the 2ndTAF book, and a member, he might know more, or you might want to check the LEMB as well.

HTH

T

PS on LEMB

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6649

if you can't get to the page, these quotes may help

and

I've never heard of 14/SG151, and the other book says Kastrup, so maybe a red herring..

Troy, that answers a hell of a lot, cheers I don't suppose you have any pictures higher quality pictures or one of the port side?

In that case I'm going to use the new tool Airfix kit. I'm totally unfamiliar with the colour scheme however I'll use the IL2 skin as a rough guide though.

Merry Christmas!

Ben

[Edgar]

Way back, an Australian IPMS magazine (there were several Australians on 41 Squadron) said that it was green on top, and blue beneath, which hints at one of the late-war two-green schemes, possibly with an all-red rudder. As well as having the "Red 1" simply overpainted by the ?, it's possible to see a circle on the fin, where the swastika has been painted out, so a repaint into RAF colours seems unlikely.

We were always told that it was an F-8, not A-8, as well.

Edgar

[wellsprop]

It looks two tone green/grey on top and I havent got a clue about underneath.

What are the external differneces between the A8 and F8?

[Troy Smith]

It looks two tone green/grey on top and I havent got a clue about underneath.

What are the external differneces between the A8 and F8?

too much turkey?

OK, you have to know where too look

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/fw190jb_1.htm

Focke-Wulf 190

Part One - Würger Genesis

A Modeler's Primer to the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A, F and G Series

have fun

T

[wellsprop]

Ah gotcha, as fat as I can tell they were identical on the outside other than the f8 having wing racks and slightly different wing armanent

Ben.

Edited December 25, 2013 by wellsprop

[wellsprop]

What Humbrol paints do I need to paint this? I haven't got a clue about Luftwaffe things (particularly late war)

Would the codes by painted Sky (as usual) or white. What colour would the front of the cowling be?

Copyright Mark I Models

Theres a rough guide as to what I guess it would have looked like. Now just to find out what paints I need...

Edited December 26, 2013 by wellsprop

[Troy Smith]

What Humbrol paints do I need to paint this? I haven't got a clue about Luftwaffe things (particularly late war)

Would the codes by painted Sky (as usual) or white. What colour would the front of the cowling be?

HI Ben

well, if Humbrols your thuing, your in luck

from here http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234944033-new-humbrol-luftwaffe-colours-now-available-from-humbrolcom/

Humbrol Paint has been setting the standard in the modelling world for many years. This year we are proud to introduce our new range of superb RLM Acrylic paints.

The Reichsluftfahrtministerium (Ministry of Aviation, Nazi Germany) was given control of the country's aviation activities in 1933; they set out to catalogue the aircraft already in production by various German manufacturers as well as new projects approved for development by the ministry.

In May 1933, Defence Minister General Werner von Blomberg transferred the Army's Department of Military Aviation (the Luftschutzamt), to the Ministry; this is considered the birth of the Luftwaffe. The aircrafts of the German Luftwaffe in WWII were painted with standardized paints, which were registered as RLM (Reichsluftfahrtministerium).

Our Acrylic RLM range consist of thirteen brand new paints in larger 14ml pots:

• 240 RLM 02 Grau Matt
• 241 RLM 70 Schwartzgrun Matt
• 242 RLM 71 Dunkelgrun Matt
• 243 RLM 72 Grun Matt
• 244 RLM 73 Grun Matt
• 245 RLM 74 Graugrun Matt
• 246 RLM 75 Grauviolett Matt
• 247 RLM 76 Lichtblau Matt
• 248 RLM 78 Himmelblau Matt
• 249 RLM 79 Sandgelb Matt
• 251 RLM 81 Dunkelbraun Matt
• 252 RLM 82 Olivgrun Matt
• 253 RLM 83 Dunkel-Grun Matt

Underside in RLM 76, upper's?? well, Edgar says 41 sq pilots said green, if so that RLM 82 and 83 [note the discussion in therad as these colours have swapped round, eg when first written about in the mid 70's, RLM 82 = Dark Green, RLM 83 bright leaf green. Now it's seems the other way around...this is a real can or worms.

The other common late war scheme is RLM75 grey with the Dark Green, with RLM 76 undersides.

The profile you posted shows this I'd say. Codes could be white, but I'd guess they were sky, as they were painted on by the captors, unless they used German paint? who knows?

[note link to LEMB posted above of German POW painting on RAF roundel]

the mid war grey scheme that is in the airfix box is RLM 74/75 underside in 76.

very very briefly.

Start of war fighters uppersides in rlm 70 Black Green and 71 Dark green.

Proved too dark, so RLM 70 replaced by RLM02 grey-green. During the battle of britain, when flying over water experments wer done with all grey uppers, and these became standard on all German fighters from 1941-1944.

These also worked well in cloudy skies, and were useed fror similar reasons to the way the RAF went from Dark green/Dark earth uppers and Sky, a defensive colouration, whic is why it was retained for bombers, to the Day Fighter Sceme Dk green Ocean Grey with med sea grey undersides, which was an offensive schem better suited to sea crosings and cloudy skies at altitude

By mid 44 the Luftwaffe was on the defensive, and introduced a defensive schem, the so calle late war grees, 81/82/83.

these were to replace 74/75 uppers, but the old paint was to be used up, hence 75/83 uppers.

Add in chaos of losing the war and the amazing variety and exceptions to every possible rule in Luftwaffe painting and you hve the basis for endless arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...I mean RLM specs.....

I mention the reason for the changes, as to often it get forgotten why camouflage works....

here's an Me 410 in faded 74/74/76

You might want a look here as well

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234944370-luftwaffe-rlm-colours-idiot-guide/

and

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234936469-109-f4-colour-help/

and here for some colour pisc of a couple of Fw190's, note one is 75/82 uppers, the other 81/82

http://falkeeins.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/sg2-fw190-camouflage-and-markings.html

Falke Eins is a member here.

Don't worry if this gives you a headache. Luftwaffe camo and markings is meant to give you a headache, it's a dastardly nazi plot

cheers

T

[Seahawk]

well, if Humbrols your thuing, your in luck

Or possibly about to become very unlucky: see this thread on how the new Luftwaffe enamels seem to be turning out:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234951081-new-humbrol-luftwaffe-enamels-any-good/

[wellsprop]

Nazi colours are awkward

I'm going with RLM 82 and 83 on top and 76 underneath.

Thanks for the help,

Ben

[wellsprop]

And I assume the guns would have most likely been removed? All the pictures of captured 190's show them gunless...

[Kagemusha]

There's a photo and profile in this book http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev4/3901-4000/rev3976-Book-Hahn/00.shtm

Posted under fair use.

Not an experten, but personally I'd paint it RLM 82 & 81 upper, 76 and bare metal undersides, the larger cowl ring the lighter RLM 76 as used towards the end of the war, codes white. For the undersides I'd go with as per Red 22 http://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/Plastic-kits/Profipack/Aircraft/Fw-190A-9-1-48.html just click on instructions.

Have fun!

[Troy Smith]

There's a photo and profile in this book http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev4/3901-4000/rev3976-Book-Hahn/00.shtm

Not an experten, but personally I'd paint it RLM 82 & 81 upper, 76 and bare metal undersides, the larger cowl ring the lighter RLM 76 as used towards the end of the war, codes white. For the undersides I'd go with as per Red 22 http://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/Plastic-kits/Profipack/Aircraft/Fw-190A-9-1-48.html just click on instructions.

Have fun!

Interesting, this pic does not have the rudder cropped off! Its sown in some profiles as being coloured, or having a hand painted 2, this shows it's just camo.

Note, , I posted above

in Volume 4 of 2nd TAF books, page 732, the above photo is reproduced, along with a pic above, captioned

"Bill Stowe of 41 sq takes Fw1980A-8 'Red 1' for a test flight. it is believed to be the same aircraft that was repainted in 41 sq markings as 'EB-?'

The original code '1' is visible under the '?'

IF this is the same plane, then it does not have the light cowl ring. The '1' looks the same, and the camo pattern could possibly match, so the light coloured ring could be a British addition?

Can't scan at the mo.

HTH

T

[wellsprop]

There's a photo and profile in this book http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev4/3901-4000/rev3976-Book-Hahn/00.shtm

Posted under fair use.

Not an experten, but personally I'd paint it RLM 82 & 81 upper, 76 and bare metal undersides, the larger cowl ring the lighter RLM 76 as used towards the end of the war, codes white. For the undersides I'd go with as per Red 22 http://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/Plastic-kits/Profipack/Aircraft/Fw-190A-9-1-48.html just click on instructions.

Have fun!

Thanks for this The colour profile REALLY helps and now I know I need to get some RLM81 (hopefully one of the toy shops will have some! Don't have any white codes either :/ Might just have to use Sky ones.

Interesting, this pic does not have the rudder cropped off! Its sown in some profiles as being coloured, or having a hand painted 2, this shows it's just camo.

Note, , I posted above

in Volume 4 of 2nd TAF books, page 732, the above photo is reproduced, along with a pic above, captioned

"Bill Stowe of 41 sq takes Fw1980A-8 'Red 1' for a test flight. it is believed to be the same aircraft that was repainted in 41 sq markings as 'EB-?'

The original code '1' is visible under the '?'

IF this is the same plane, then it does not have the light cowl ring. The '1' looks the same, and the camo pattern could possibly match, so the light coloured ring could be a British addition?

Can't scan at the mo.

HTH

T

It makes sense for the cowl to be painted by the RAF, late war Spitfire XIV's form 41sqn had their cannons repainted white to aid ID. Given that the cowl is white, it makes a lot of sense... No problem about the scans

Ben

Edited December 30, 2013 by wellsprop

[Troy Smith]

Ben

the colours shown in the profile are best matched by RLM 75 [mid grey, or Grau-violet] and the dark green of the late war greens, #253 in humbrol is now dunkel-grun.

This grey/green scheme was commonly used, and is documented in both colour pics, AND on a piece of bf109 K4 fabric, the serial on a plane, with a corresponding photo [have a search for a PDF of the Monogram Bf109K monograph for info on this]

Assuming 83 is dark green, and 81/82 scheme will be dark brown and bright green, as seen on the Smithsonian Me262

the plane was very carefully restored in 1977/78, with the layers of paint carefully rubbed back [uS over the German] , and the original colours matched. There was an Article in Scale Model on this back in 1979.

The photos taken outside maybe give a better idea of colour, for example

and

The dark brown/dark green version is very lo contrast.

this was on the Australian Me163 before 'restoration'

see here for more http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/australia.htm

The 'dark brown' varied as well, having a green tinge when fresh, and when faded having a more 'purple' hue, losing the green hue. Note the Me163 had coat of wax applied by the Germans and the paint stayed in very good condition.

Just to REALLY confuse you, here's a wartime colour pic, of a Bf109K4, I've seen a few internet bunfights over this...by this time the planes were often built by different subcontractors, note the tail planes are a good example of 75 grey with the dark green, and the fuselage underside colours is the greener version of RLM 76 [sometimes called RLM '84'] with the fuselage possily in faded 81 [undercockpit] and the dark green, and the cowling in 75....maybe ...

Note, I'm just trying to help Ben visualise the colours and combinations used, not start another bunfight!

cheers

T

[wellsprop]

I have seen on a few forums the "debates" about the mystic RLM 84 I've currently only have Humbrol 252 and 253 (RLM 82 and 83 respectively) and been doing test paints on an old Spitfire wing, it makes a lot more sense now that it looks like 83/75. 82 is much too light and 81 is brown (from pics I've seen).

So I'm settling for;

• RLM 83 and 75 all over 76
• Sky codes (for lack of white codes)
• Red spinner
• Red front cowl
• White rear cowl
• Over painted Swastikas
• Roundels and markings applied directly over German ones

If anyone knows any better I'm willing to make amendments

Ben

[larumivi1951]

I hope this scan helps a little.

Rudolph, Denmark

[wellsprop]

After chatting to Chris (who mentioned it was repainted), seeing the colour profile and a stunning diorama by a member of another forum, I have decided to go with the typical RAF green/grey colours. This would explain the repainted cowl, late 41sqn machines had red spinners, so the red and white cowl with the red spinner comes from their cross.

THIS IS NOT MY WORK - COPYRIGHT SNAPPER41 FROM SCALE-MODELS.CO.UK http://www.scale-models.co.uk/threads/diorama-41-squadron-kastrup-denmark-1945.12830/

So I'm going for Humbrol 163 and 164 (I don't want to start the usual humbrol RAF colours argument, these are just what I prefer)

Ben.

Edited December 31, 2013 by wellsprop

[Edgar]

After chatting to Chris (who mentioned it was repainted), seeing the colour profile and a stunning diorama by a member of another forum, I have decided to go with the typical RAF green/grey colours. This would explain the repainted cowl, late 41sqn machines had red spinners, so the red and white cowl with the red spinner comes from their cross.

It doesn't explain why the black/red "1" didn't get overpainted, though, nor the obvious patch where the swastika has been overpainted.

Incidentally, in a 1980(ish) book, on German aircraft, there was a photo of a line-up of 41 Squadron's Spitfires, with the 190 at the end of the line, taken from above, so the upper camouflage pattern was visible. Years later I asked the book's owner about it, but he couldn't remember the title, and, in the meantime, had disposed of his entire library.

Incidentally, if you ever build a Spitfire, don't follow the builder of that diorama, and place your walkway lines over the roundels; that was a strict no-no (from Air Ministry instructions.)

[wellsprop]

It doesn't explain why the black/red "1" didn't get overpainted, though, nor the obvious patch where the swastika has been overpainted.

Incidentally, in a 1980(ish) book, on German aircraft, there was a photo of a line-up of 41 Squadron's Spitfires, with the 190 at the end of the line, taken from above, so the upper camouflage pattern was visible. Years later I asked the book's owner about it, but he couldn't remember the title, and, in the meantime, had disposed of his entire library.

Incidentally, if you ever build a Spitfire, don't follow the builder of that diorama, and place your walkway lines over the roundels; that was a strict no-no (from Air Ministry instructions.)

Agreed, it's strange that if it were repainted, the markings were left... However, between the B and the roundel it seems there has been something overpainted there. Its a tricky one. More interestingly, the books (Captured Butcherbirds vol 2 and the 2TAF books) as well as other publications do agree that it was eventually repainted. Chris (co author of the 2TAF books) also confirmed that it was repainted.

I made the AZ XIV in 72nd of EB-V, to my knowledge this is how it should look;

yellow ring around roundels,

white ID cannons,

repainted sky band (doesnt show up well)

Ockham's Razor suggests that if RAF roundels and squadron codes were applied, it would be painted in RAF colours (assuming it was repainted as mentioned).

Ben

Edited December 31, 2013 by wellsprop

[Troy Smith]

Agreed, it's strange that if it were repainted, the markings were left... However, between the B and the roundel it seems there has been something overpainted there. Its a tricky one. More interestingly, the books (Captured Butcherbirds vol 2 and the 2TAF books) as well as other publications do agree that it was eventually repainted. Chris (co author of the 2TAF books) also confirmed that it was repainted.

Ockham's Razor suggests that if RAF roundels and squadron codes were applied, it would be painted in RAF colours (assuming it was repainted as mentioned).

Ben

Ben

there is a photo in the 2nd TAF book which shows a FW190 coded XM-?which does look like a full repaint. It notes it was made airworthy at FW190 modification facilty, which would be set to repaint.

EB-? does not like this too me, as the photo with German markings looks similar to the one with RAF markings added. Given that the German colours are probably dark green and grey, why bother? The war is over, it's a essentially a 'toy'

Occam's razor would suggest given the visible '1' that it was done simply by adding RAF markings.

I'll send some pics later.

T

[Edgar]

However, between the B and the roundel it seems there has been something overpainted there.

Part of the black cross, perhaps?

[Chris Thomas]

After chatting to Chris (who mentioned it was repainted)

Ben.

I think I ought to make it clear that when I said the photo in vol.4 "shows the port side of the aircraft before it was repainted, from the fus cross to the nose." I meant the photo shows the aircraft from the cross to the nose, not that it was repainted from cross to nose! And "repainted" meant the application of British markings and 41 Sqn codes; I should have been more specific.

I have not come across any documentary refs to the painting of the aircraft so it's all down to interpretation of the photo. To my eye it looks like the German scheme was retained. I could just about go for the red and white nose. Go for it Ben, nobody can prove you wrong ....

Chris

[wellsprop]

I think I ought to make it clear that when I said the photo in vol.4 "shows the port side of the aircraft before it was repainted, from the fus cross to the nose." I meant the photo shows the aircraft from the cross to the nose, not that it was repainted from cross to nose! And "repainted" meant the application of British markings and 41 Sqn codes; I should have been more specific.

I have not come across any documentary refs to the painting of the aircraft so it's all down to interpretation of the photo. To my eye it looks like the German scheme was retained. I could just about go for the red and white nose. Go for it Ben, nobody can prove you wrong ....

Chris

Ah ok. What confuses me is the colour profile showing it in what is more or less RAF colours as well as Snapper41 painting his in RAF coulours.

Wierdly enough rlm83 converts to humbrol 253 which os a very close match to 163. Likewise rlm75 converts to 246 which a very close katch to 164.

All this aside, I guess I can paint it whatever I like giveb that no-one cam prove me wrong hehehe

Hopefully Humbrol 163 and 164 are a close match to what the real EB-? had..

Ben