AASF & Air Component BEF Hurricane colours & markings

[oldgit]

Chaps,

I’m presently working on a string of the new Airfix fabric wing Hurricane Mk.1’s

I know that officially, Air Component BEF and AASF fighters were supposed to have the half night, half white Fighter Command ‘friendly’ recognition colours underneath, with red, white, blue roundels under each wing. I also know that some Hurricanes, depending on production batch, still had aluminium/silver nose, rear fuselage and tailplane undersides, with some also having aluminium/silver ailerons also.

The confusing factor, (pauses to look at a can of worms nearby…), is the ‘pale blue’ / ‘light blue’ / ‘blue-grey’ underside colour used on some Hurricanes. I have seen profiles pertaining to show the undersides overall ‘light blue’ or whatever colour and some also showing the under fuselage in such a colour, with the underside of the wings remaining in night/white and even one, I think, in such a night/white/light blue underside scheme, with aluminium under the tail!

Can anyone kindly clarify the situation please? I believe that 73 squadron had ‘light blue’ undersides, is that correct? Did any of the other 3 Air Component BEF and AASF Hurricane squadrons follow suit? Was it an overall underside colouring, or was the night/white retained? Does anyone know what the actual ‘light blue’ colour was? British? French? For modelling purposes, could anyone offer a likely shade?

It is also known, of course, that 73 squadron and 87 Squadron all had red white blue rudder stripes applied, in a similar manner to the French Air Force at the time, to aid recognition. Did the other two squadrons do the same?

Also, looking at this photo:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259684

I can’t help wondering if it’s the film, the developing, or whether it really does look like either dark blue next to the fin, with white then red trailing, or perhaps a dark red next to the fin, with white then perhaps a pale ‘French’ shade of blue at the rear. Would anyone care to offer any clarity. Which way round WERE the rudder stripes on the AASF and AC BEF Hurricanes?

I noticed also, that the fuselage roundels are red/white/blue in common with RAF Fighter Command instructions of the time, but what about the upper wing ones, were they red/blue or red/white/blue?

Finally, did any numbers of AASF and AC BEF Hurricanes ever carry red/white/blue/yellow fuselage roundels with the single letter codes & rudder stripes as per the superbly restored P3351? It seems a very ‘late’ scheme for the campaign and given the chaos of the time, I wonder how many machines actually got the yellow rings added?

Thanks chaps, any clarity is much appreciated, as always.

Tim

[Troy Smith]

Lots of questions.

There are reports of some of AASF planes having blue undersides, with French paint.

But, given that the images available are B/W, it's hard to tell if planes had aluminium paint as opposed to blue.

As for profiles , again. NEVER trust a profile without a supporting photo.

these threads may help. They are not direct answers, but there are answers to questions you have asked, and ones you have not yet asked, but probably will

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234907653-hurricane-i-vy-cg-of-85-sqn-lille-seclin-around-apr-1940/

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234946963-hurricane-1-87-sqn-lille-seclin-france-1940/

some great pic in this one

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/54350-po-moulds-hurricane-l1842-no1-squadron-france-1939/

and some more that have info on early hurricanes

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234937987-kits-for-cash-hurricane-fabric-wing/

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234934849-classic-airframes-hurricane-worth-getting/

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234950986-early-hurricane-mki-details-and-a-challenge-or-two/

pre war colour photos and more

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234938125-hurricane-question/

and while I'm finding them

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234930159-172-hurricane-prototype/

note the drawings posted by John Thompson

and another

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234919787-yet-another-hurricane-fabric-wing-question/

have fun!

T

[Selwyn]

Chaps,

I’m presently working on a string of the new Airfix fabric wing Hurricane Mk.1’s

I know that officially, Air Component BEF and AASF fighters were supposed to have the half night, half white Fighter Command ‘friendly’ recognition colours underneath, with red, white, blue roundels under each wing. I also know that some Hurricanes, depending on production batch, still had aluminium/silver nose, rear fuselage and tailplane undersides, with some also having aluminium/silver ailerons also.

The confusing factor, (pauses to look at a can of worms nearby…), is the ‘pale blue’ / ‘light blue’ / ‘blue-grey’ underside colour used on some Hurricanes. I have seen profiles pertaining to show the undersides overall ‘light blue’ or whatever colour and some also showing the under fuselage in such a colour, with the underside of the wings remaining in night/white and even one, I think, in such a night/white/light blue underside scheme, with aluminium under the tail!

Can anyone kindly clarify the situation please? I believe that 73 squadron had ‘light blue’ undersides, is that correct? Did any of the other 3 Air Component BEF and AASF Hurricane squadrons follow suit? Was it an overall underside colouring, or was the night/white retained? Does anyone know what the actual ‘light blue’ colour was? British? French? For modelling purposes, could anyone offer a likely shade?

It is also known, of course, that 73 squadron and 87 Squadron all had red white blue rudder stripes applied, in a similar manner to the French Air Force at the time, to aid recognition. Did the other two squadrons do the same?

Also, looking at this photo:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259684

I can’t help wondering if it’s the film, the developing, or whether it really does look like either dark blue next to the fin, with white then red trailing, or perhaps a dark red next to the fin, with white then perhaps a pale ‘French’ shade of blue at the rear. Would anyone care to offer any clarity. Which way round WERE the rudder stripes on the AASF and AC BEF Hurricanes?

I noticed also, that the fuselage roundels are red/white/blue in common with RAF Fighter Command instructions of the time, but what about the upper wing ones, were they red/blue or red/white/blue?

Finally, did any numbers of AASF and AC BEF Hurricanes ever carry red/white/blue/yellow fuselage roundels with the single letter codes & rudder stripes as per the superbly restored P3351? It seems a very ‘late’ scheme for the campaign and given the chaos of the time, I wonder how many machines actually got the yellow rings added?

Thanks chaps, any clarity is much appreciated, as always.

Tim

Just a suggestion.

If some of the Hurricanes in France had "light blue" undersides, would a contender be the same blue/grey used on the undersides of the French Air Force aircraft? This would be readily available locally for use on a hurried camo change if required?

Just my 10p's worth.........

Selwyn

[Edgar]

25-11-39 Air Commodore Bottomley (Bomber Command C.O.) told the Air Ministry that he was arranging for Blenheims, heading for France, to have their black undersides replaced by a blue-grey.

30-11-39 the Air Ministry sent a signal to 1 Mission (repeated to Bomber Command,) asking them to inform the French that Blenheims would be getting blue undersides, and the first should arrive 2-12-39.

I've no idea what that blue-grey was (doesn't sound like Camotint/Sky, though,) but it seems a distinct possibility that the same colour could have been used on Hurricanes.

Edgar

[Test Graham]

There are a number of photos showing these Blenheims with light-coloured underside. Paul Lucas has described this (and I'm working from memory here) as being close to Camotint/Sky but glossier. I guess one man's "blue" or "blue-grey" is another's "duck-egg blue".

[Edgar]

I'd say that it rather depends on whether he was looking at colour photos, or "interpreting" black and white.

[Test Graham]

Indeed, though I was just thinking of the problems of describing "duck egg blue", whomever you are. The other RAE colour Sky Blue could also be called "blue-grey". Michael Bowyer also described the colour of these Blenheims as "duck egg blue", stating that most ot 2 group's Blenheims being so coloured before the May campaign. He shows UX.N P4851, recorded at Watton a few days before its loss on May 17th.

Lucas doesn't interpret from B&W, but (I summarise two pages of text) does give considerable discussion to these Blenheims, including the two references above, but also to eyewitness accounts from Bristol where from February 1940 production Blenheims were being finished in "light green" or Sky, Titanine being perhaps the likeliest source - as delivered to the PDU. He also quotes from an AM letter to Bristol 20 April 1940, discussing their use of Camotint. The AM called for the paint to be to DT D63 with reduced gloss, the supply of paints from Rootes thus providing a degree of gloss only acceptable on Blenheims.

So it seems that around 1939 there could be some varied underside colours on Blenheims, but (IMO) the modeller is safe to stick to one or the other of the known paints of the time.

I have the very individual (and unsupported by text!) approach that Sky Blue was the originally favoured colour (which at least does go with the 1939 descriptions above), but the AM was sidetracked by the PDU's use of Camotint.

[Troy Smith]

Chaps,

I’m presently working on a string of the new Airfix fabric wing Hurricane Mk.1’s

I know that officially, Air Component BEF and AASF fighters were supposed to have the half night, half white Fighter Command ‘friendly’ recognition colours underneath, with red, white, blue roundels under each wing. I also know that some Hurricanes, depending on production batch, still had aluminium/silver nose, rear fuselage and tailplane undersides, with some also having aluminium/silver ailerons also.

The confusing factor, (pauses to look at a can of worms nearby…), is the ‘pale blue’ / ‘light blue’ / ‘blue-grey’ underside colour used on some Hurricanes. I have seen profiles pertaining to show the undersides overall ‘light blue’ or whatever colour and some also showing the under fuselage in such a colour, with the underside of the wings remaining in night/white and even one, I think, in such a night/white/light blue underside scheme, with aluminium under the tail!

Can anyone kindly clarify the situation please? I believe that 73 squadron had ‘light blue’ undersides, is that correct? Did any of the other 3 Air Component BEF and AASF Hurricane squadrons follow suit? Was it an overall underside colouring, or was the night/white retained? Does anyone know what the actual ‘light blue’ colour was? British? French? For modelling purposes, could anyone offer a likely shade?

It is also known, of course, that 73 squadron and 87 Squadron all had red white blue rudder stripes applied, in a similar manner to the French Air Force at the time, to aid recognition. Did the other two squadrons do the same?

Also, looking at this photo:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259684

I can’t help wondering if it’s the film, the developing, or whether it really does look like either dark blue next to the fin, with white then red trailing, or perhaps a dark red next to the fin, with white then perhaps a pale ‘French’ shade of blue at the rear. Would anyone care to offer any clarity. Which way round WERE the rudder stripes on the AASF and AC BEF Hurricanes?

I noticed also, that the fuselage roundels are red/white/blue in common with RAF Fighter Command instructions of the time, but what about the upper wing ones, were they red/blue or red/white/blue?

Finally, did any numbers of AASF and AC BEF Hurricanes ever carry red/white/blue/yellow fuselage roundels with the single letter codes & rudder stripes as per the superbly restored P3351? It seems a very ‘late’ scheme for the campaign and given the chaos of the time, I wonder how many machines actually got the yellow rings added?

Thanks chaps, any clarity is much appreciated, as always.

Tim

Tim

Just posted this in the Paul Richey thread, but figure of use here. I try to edit this, but the pics show in general B/W undersides for 1, 85 and 87.

More 1 sq pics in this thread

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/54350-po-moulds-hurricane-l1842-no1-squadron-france-1939/

John Adams notes is post #14

I think that they simply painted out the Sqn code and left the A/c code hence Port side at rear and Stbd in front of the roundel. There is a mention in either Richey's book or Twice V ref the Hurricanes being archied and "Bull" Halloran persuading HQ to allow them to paint the undersides Blue which led to the general adoption of the "underside blues". If so the Blue would have to have come from the French. I think the guy in front of "T" is Clowes.

BUT, also about painting out the squadron codes. In that case JX-G I'd think predates this, and would still have the Black/white undersides.

It's also still got the watts 2 bladed prop, and these were still in evidence when the king visited France from the photos I've seen of 87 and 85 sq in France, December 1939?

I've not seen a Battle of France photo with a Watts prop in it, and the photos of 85 Squadron later on, I presume early 1940, like this, show the DH props fitted

checking the IWM site, I found this, which I've not seen before

Pilots of No 1 Squadron at Vassincourt show off one of their Hurricanes to Mr Mahmoud Abu Fath, a member of the Egyptian Parliament, January 1940. Looking at the camera is Flying Officer Billy Drake, who became a 20-kill ace and survived the war.

with what looks to be a black port side, the streaks on the UC door are oil BTW, but removed code letters.

this has got to be late spring, and shows white starboard side, metal wing [note ejector slots] and 4 spoke wheels.

A member of the groundcrew lays beneath the wing of a Hawker Hurricane Mk I on standby at Lille-Seclin, France 1940.

This one I've not seen before, 87 sq

Hawker Hurricane Mk Is of No. 87 Squadron at Lille-Seclin, France 1940.

Note larger codes on LK-S, and the light coloured spinners on LK-S and LK-O, darker on LK-L [?] possible use of flight colours by 87 as well.

all with DH props, no yellow rings/tail stripes, and the trees in the background still look bare.

The shield emblem is on the fin, seen again on the 87 sq pic with the tail stripes.

also posted here http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234951615-paul-richey-hurricane-questions/?p=1496106

T

[Troy Smith]

Indeed, though I was just thinking of the problems of describing "duck egg blue", whomever you are. The other RAE colour Sky Blue could also be called "blue-grey". Michael Bowyer also described the colour of these Blenheims as "duck egg blue", stating that most ot 2 group's Blenheims being so coloured before the May campaign. He shows UX.N P4851, recorded at Watton a few days before its loss on May 17th.

Lucas doesn't interpret from B&W, but (I summarise two pages of text) does give considerable discussion to these Blenheims, including the two references above, but also to eyewitness accounts from Bristol where from February 1940 production Blenheims were being finished in "light green" or Sky, Titanine being perhaps the likeliest source - as delivered to the PDU. He also quotes from an AM letter to Bristol 20 April 1940, discussing their use of Camotint. The AM called for the paint to be to DT D63 with reduced gloss, the supply of paints from Rootes thus providing a degree of gloss only acceptable on Blenheims.

So it seems that around 1939 there could be some varied underside colours on Blenheims, but (IMO) the modeller is safe to stick to one or the other of the known paints of the time.

I have the very individual (and unsupported by text!) approach that Sky Blue was the originally favoured colour (which at least does go with the 1939 descriptions above), but the AM was sidetracked by the PDU's use of Camotint.

Hmm, is this one old news? Worth a thread of it's own? Not seen it before though. Posted in light of Graham's comments.

Bristol Blenheim Mk IV P4899 of the Photographic Development Unit, commanded by Wing Commander Sidney Cotton, at Lille-Seclin, France, 1940.

[Edgar]

I have the very individual (and unsupported by text!) approach that Sky Blue was the originally favoured colour (which at least does go with the 1939 descriptions above), but the AM was sidetracked by the PDU's use of Camotint.

There is some textual support for that idea; in (very) early May 1940, a report was received from France, where a section of 1 Squadron Hurricanes had deployed, to carry out tests against a captured Me-109.

The author, S/L Halahan, towards the end, notes that the 109, due to its blue camouflage, was extremely difficult to see, from below, while the 109 pilot could pick out the Hurricanes from a great deal further, thereby gaining an advantage. He recommended the use of "duck-egg blue," leaving the roundels intact, and this was endorsed, in an internal memo, by a junior (Air Ministry?) officer, who added that it might be a good idea to use the same colour on day bombers and reconnaissance aircraft. This hints at Sky not (yet) being used, lending weight to the theory of 1939 use of Sky Blue, instead.

It also seems likely that the 1 Squadron report was the driving force for the introduction of Sky on 6-6-40.

Edgar

[gingerbob]

Or a contributing factor, at least- the influence of the PDU cannot be discounted.

Troy, any thoughts about the Hurris in the background in your Blenheim photo? One seems to have a black underside on port wing, but I'm not so sure about the other, and its starboard wing seems (at casual inspection) not unlike the Blenheim. I suppose it could just be white...

bob

[Troy Smith]

Or a contributing factor, at least- the influence of the PDU cannot be discounted.

Troy, any thoughts about the Hurris in the background in your Blenheim photo? One seems to have a black underside on port wing, but I'm not so sure about the other, and its starboard wing seems (at casual inspection) not unlike the Blenheim. I suppose it could just be white...

bob

You know what bob, I'd not even noticed them in the background!! it was 5.25 am and was about to wrap up ....

I posted it was it was not a pic I'd seen before, and with talk of PDU camotint thought it worth mentioning/posting.

The IWM pic do not seem that well sorted, they were all taken by a chap called Bray it seems.

But, looking at them now, the one behind the Blenhiem looks to have a black port wing, so white on the starboard is most probable, as the whole point of the 'underside blue' was concealment, and keeping a wing black would not make sense.

Without a decent blow up I'd not like to say, but note that there is a difference in tone between the white of the Blenhiem underwing roundel, and the underside.

I can't see that on that Hurricane, but you'd need a larger print/scan to see more.

cheers

T

there are some of of the Bray photos showing a couple of crashes of 87 sq planes that are interesting.