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In defence of the Supermarine Swift


AnonymousAA72

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To summarise: is the Swift worth of a new tool mainstream kit ? Yes, yes, yes !

Was the Swift a good design ? Sorry, it was not

There's lots of good kits of aircraft that actually weren't much good so it's nothing new :whistle: But that's not really for discussion here

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Let's not forget the Swift F7, in this airframe and missle combination we had probably one of the most effective weapons system of its day, yet only a handful were built,used for trials and the aircraft and the Fairey Fireflash missle were discarded afterwards. The Swift in its F7 variant had "the bugs" ironed out and was a very potent fighter.

Andrew

an airfix kit and an alicat conversion.......yes I would......my willpower is so weak

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I suppose my initial 'concern' (for want of a better word) was that some suggested, and not necessarily just on BM, that the Swift was not important enough an aircraft to warrant Airfix issuing a kit of it, and that there were more worthy subjects.

We've discussed its merits and so on, and there's been some good arguments pro & con wise, but then what IS a worthy subject?

We all have our favourites........I'd love to see a series of twin boomers for example ....single seater Vampires and a Venom or two would be great and I suspect that we may see these issued over the next few years, along with a host of other types. But what makes a kit a more worthy subject than another.....

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Read "Swift Justice," by Nigel Walpole; it's quite enlightening. I know that some of the "anti" emotion was engendered by the feeling that Supermarine cheated by going to Libya's heat, to get the World Speed Record.

Edgar

I enjoyed reading that book too, which enlightened me as to the Swift's service record, although one of the reviews at Amazon seemed a bit harsh.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Swift-Justice-Supermarine-Low-level-Reconnaissance/dp/1844150704/

Can't see anything wrong with a bit of 'Tally Ho' myself . . .

It is only a few years ago that I suspect none of us could even have imagined a new tooled Swift from Airfix in 1/72!

Nick

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Now that's the question that's been lurking in the shadows.

What subject qualifies for a place on my shelf? Solely the fact that I want one there. And if the question is entirely subjective, the answer is entirely absolute. Like true love I cannot define it but I will surely know it when I see it.

And yes, there is a Swift in my future. Two in fact, gotta finish the old Hawk one first. I am looking forward to aftermarket decals and won't that make the Hawk kit a winner? It will to me.

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I enjoyed reading that book too, which enlightened me as to the Swift's service record, although one of the reviews at Amazon seemed a bit harsh.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Swift-Justice-Supermarine-Low-level-Reconnaissance/dp/1844150704/

Can't see anything wrong with a bit of 'Tally Ho' myself . . .

I think the author of that negative review might not have liked to discover how much drinking was going on in the war-winning air forces of 1939-1945...

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I also have Nigel Walpole's book on my shelf and greatly enjoyed reading it too. The FR5 seems to have been a capable machine in the FR role. The Swift itself suffered mainly by its provenance - basically an experimental machine, converted for series production and many ex ground engineers would give their own stories regarding the efforts needed to keep it in the air. Pressures on Supermarines to do this rather than design a new aircraft was probably at the root of the sorry tale but then the world was always on the brink of war at the time so perhaps it can be partially excused all round. Would sticking with the Canadair Sabre have been a better bet in retrospect? The Hunter of course evolved via the Seahawk and its swept wing conversions and became the better all rounder as a result. Of course, when later marks received drop tanks it could finally leave the circuit !

Just thinking on from that, the Lightning also evolved from an experimental jet didn't it? I wonder if that might have resulted in another Swift style debacle if luck had dealt a poorer hand there?

Nice one Airfix.....

Nige B

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It is only a few years ago that I suspect none of us could even have imagined a new tooled Swift from Airfix in 1/72!

It was only 6 weeks ago for me! Airfix is certainly ringing the changes and releasing some great kits right now.

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I've never even see a real one and doubt I ever will (I live in USA now).

You lucky fellow!

David

Rolls Royce Hucknall in the 50's was a mecca for all the stuff we used to 'spot' in the circuit. Virtually anything with an RR engine or derivative. Swift F.4 and 5, reverse thrust Hunter, Mystere 4, Soar Meteor, Spit 14, Avro Ashton and all of the turbo prop experimental's. Great days. Two of those aircraft the FR.9 Meteor and Swift are over at Newark about 25 mins away.

John

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Not my first choice , but welcome all the same I will support Airfix and buy a few hopefully that will encourage them to see fit and release a few of the other 50's , 60's and 70's British types I would love to see.

Glenn.

Edited by cardiff guy
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And yes, there is a Swift in my future. Two in fact, gotta finish the old Hawk one first. I am looking forward to aftermarket decals and won't that make the Hawk kit a winner? It will to me.

Here's an interesting project for you. complete the Hawk kit. Follow it up with an Xtrakit Swift. Then finish the trilogy off with an Airfix one. Display 'em all together and post the pictures on BM. :D

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Hands up who's actually seen a Swift in the air!

John

:( sadly not, would've liked to though. My earliest memories are 72/73 ish.

There are many I regret not seeing. I guess that's why my builds fall into a specific era.

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I'm one of those who criticised the Swift on other threads calling it a fat knacker, I'm fat so I know what fat looks like, the Swift was a corpulent airframe, in another thread I said that it looked like it had swallowed the Hunter whole and then ate a few pies! I wish to amend that statement, I now think it swallowed a Hunter whole and then ate all the pies!

If ever there was an inappropriately named aircraft the Swift it is, its namesake is lithe, graceful and above all swift!

The Swift found a role because, let's face it, a lot of money, time and effort was spent on it and a lot of prestige was at stake (not just Supermarine's but the country's), something had to be done with it. That it was adequate at low-level photo-recce was fortunate, that it was better than some mediocre opposition was extremely fortunate indeed!

A late friend of mine who worked for Supermarine but had worked on Sabre's and Hunters during National Service claimed that the Swift was an utter pig to work on compared to the other two, one of the reasons was due to the conservatism of the Supermarine design team, having crawled over the F.7 when it was at Bournemouth many years ago I found out why - it was double skinned! What I mean by this was behind the access panels were further smaller access panels which not only made it extra difficult to access the thing you wanted to access but what added to the aircraft's corpulence! The view of my late friend was that the design team had built it big and strong rather than use anything revolutionary in its manufacture.

As I said on the other thread, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, some people think the Swift is an attractive, I don't see it myself, it lacks grace from just about any view but especially when compared to the Hunter - the epitome of beauty in a jet!

Finally, Bill who started this thread tries to defend the aircraft by saying it was the first RAF aircraft to enter service with a swept wing (which was actually the Sabre) and the first to enter service with reheat (it was said at the time it was the only RAF aircraft that needed it), let's face it, the Hunter out-performed it!

Now onto the Airfix kit, would I have preferred it if they'd done a single seat Vampire, Venom, Meteor 8, Hunter F.4/T.7, Javelin or Lightning F1/3? Absolutely!

Am I pleased that Airfix have produced a kit of a Cold War period British jet? Absolutely!

Will I buy a Swift when it comes out? Absolutely! I need one to complete my line up of Cold War British Jets and the FR variant was in the most attractive camouflage scheme (DG/DSG/PRU Blue).

Do I hope that Airfix will be encouraged to produce yet more Cold War jets - especially British ones. Absolutely!

But please, can we stop pretending that the Swift was anything other than the Hunter's unlovely, ugly sister?

Wez

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"The Swift" isn't what Airfix has kitted. They've kitted the FR.Mk.5, which was a very different aircraft from the earlier models. It did work; the early ones didn't and, what with the pitch-up problem and all, were thoroughly dangerous by comparison.

The early Hunters were, likewise, a bit crap, with the Mk.1 and the Mk.2 little better than pre-production models. But (engine surge aside) the Hunter was fundamentally vice-free, and needed relatively little improvement to perfect it. The Swift needed deep redesign and even then was good only in one tightly defined role. The Mk.7 might have been good too, but really it should never even have been ordered. By then it was clear that the Hunter was better and more flexible, and the need for a second fighter type had dissipated, even if the second fighter had been the Hunter's equal. Persisting with the Swift past the FR.Mk.5 was a classic Ministry of Supply waste of effort, apparently done to make Supermarine feel a bit better.

Also the Swift is an utter horror compared with the Hunter. Its tail surfaces are all too small, the intakes are horrid, the fuselage could lose 20% of its girth, and the nose taper is just wrong. I would have bought one nonetheless (after all, I have stuff in the stash that looks like it's been built inside-out) but learning that it's to be 1/72 is not making me warm to the idea.

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I'm very happy with this one. It is an opportunity to build something different from the grey F-xx. To model ocmpanies: WE DO NOT NEED A NEW TOOL KIT OF THE F-16 EVERYTIME THERE A NEW SWITCH IN THE COCKPIT UNTIL WE HAVE A DECENT KIT OF EVERY IMPORTANT AIRCRAFT!!!

I am not British

I am not particularily fond of the Swift

But

I am a 1/72 builder

I love the jet golden age of the 50s/60s

I love nice little kits not too expensive that let you add the amount of detail you want but wich is still pretty nice oob such as the old F-100, F-5, Harriers or F-104 by Esci, back in the years.

Therefore, my hat off to Airfix. I really like the way they do their business since a year or two.

I have a dream that some days, Heller... (copyright: Martin Luther King...) ;-))

Edited by squezzer
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I suppose my initial 'concern' (for want of a better word) was that some suggested, and not necessarily just on BM, that the Swift was not important enough an aircraft to warrant Airfix issuing a kit of it, and that there were more worthy subjects.

'Some' are prats!! I wonder what they thought of the BV141?

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'Some' are prats!! I wonder what they thought of the BV141?

"We as modellers must not rest until every German subject from the Second World War is kitted out, even aircraft that only existed in our own fever dreams after working with lacquers in an unventilated space, but which definitely had swastikas on their tails or tail-equivalents."

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Not sure I'll buy one but I'm sure Airfix have done their sums on it. To me it's a more legitimate subject than any Luft '46 WHIF and is deserving of a mainstream manufacturer's attentions.

Trevor

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I am always wary when people slate a particular type.We have the advantage of hind sight,at the time these airframes were being produced,they were cutting edge.People forget what these aircraft replaced.Both the swift and the javelin replaced Meteors.not exactly the best thing since sliced bread.Am sure a pilot of the day would have rather gone to war in a firestreak/cannon armed javelin than a cannon armed meteor.

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Hands up who's actually seen a Swift in the air!

John

I've seen one in the air but I wish we had had cameras like now, then, or aircraft like then, now! My enduring memories of the post-war RAF classics seen as a boy are of the Lightning's near vertical rotations, the noise of Victors seemingly all hours of the day and night and a Canberra doing very naughty things but it all tends to get a bit blurred now.

Oh, and how could I forget, the Black Arrows arriving on a perfect summer evening before a BoB airshow and taxying in.

Nick

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