Desert Gladiators

[Nick Millman]

"If people see some of my comments as a personal attack then perhaps it's my personal frustration with know-it-all rivet counters coming through or they are guilty as charged some of the replies have been a bit precious to be honest."

Maybe your "personal frustration with know-it-all rivet counters coming through" says more about you than about them. After all that is your defining label not theirs.

And "guilty as charged" probably belongs in a court of law (or maybe your classroom) rather than on a forum with the accuser using a pseudonym, but in any event those charged usually get to know who they are, understand the evidence against them and are given a chance to defend themselves before being convicted. I hope you teach those fundamental principles of justice to your history pupils.

Nick

[Algie75]

Nick, I think you need to calm down a bit, have you missed all of the other stuff I said?

Your reply illustrates my point, a court of law... We are discussing history, nothing as serious as can be compared to a court.

My point is, and I say it again, a balanced analysis of all of the evidence is what is required which takes in but does not discount valid historical sources. I am not looking for a simple answer, more the opposite, recognising that multiple sources will throw up a more complex view and these should not be brashly dismissed.

Having a heated tone, carefully selecting quotes to create argument illustrates my point about a topic not reading well. I made a point about rivet counters - an inflammatory phrase for modellers, I know and I apologise but a 'my view is correct' attitude is reminiscent of this.

To answer your personal point, I teach my students to carefully evaluate all evidence and respect the views of others. If you read my last post I use the word respect a lot.

Now please can we look at the value of the evidence on this topic in its entirety and see if we can draw conclusions which modellers like me can learn from.

Banter mode on: Am I also to assume from your last post that you don't like beer banter mode off;

[Edgar]

Trying to bring this back to the subject, it is also very dangerous to assume that communications took an age to get anywhere; it might have been 70 years ago, but the runner with the cleft stick was long gone.

I have copies of several print-outs from messages between London, Malta, the Middle East, and Gibraltar; all went by teleprinter, and all show a date of receipt identical to that of despatch. The only likely delays would have been during encryption and decryption at either end, and that would have been minutes.

Unless you have cast-iron evidence of anything in research, it can be terminally fatal to estimate/guess, because you'll be found out, as sure as eggs.

Edgar

[Algie75]

Edgar I completely agree with you; my point about things taking time to get to an HQ were purely a suggestion and I appreciate the heads up with the evidence.

On topic; what are the suggested colour schemes for a gladiator? If both points of view and all evidence is taken into account. I have three lovely Airfix new moulds sat here, what could be an unusual scheme for North Africa/Middle East that someone has evidence for? I have the latest xtradecal sheet, what are the views on that?

[Edgar]

The only land schemes, specifically for the Gladiator, that I've found (dated February 1939) are what became known as the Temperate Land Scheme and its Shadow, and they consisted of just the two (dark & light) Greens and Earths. When Sky appeared, Malta were given the option to use it, and said no thanks, so it's tempting to think that M.E.H.Q. would have done the same, especially as, in late 1940, they sent, to the Air Ministry, a sample of their preferred blue for the undersides, which sounds remarkably like Azure blue.

In September 1938, there was a general biplane scheme for the "Middle East" (pencilled onto the transparency,) which consisted of 6 colours, Dark Earth, Dark Red Sand, Dark Sea Green, Dark Sand, Red Sand, and Light Sea Green (guessing that the last three were the "shadow" colours,) but the biplane illustrated seems more de Havilland than Gloster.

Edgar

[Nick Millman]

"Nick, I think you need to calm down a bit, have you missed all of the other stuff I said?"

I was and am perfectly calm, thank you, and I read your other stuff too. Every single word.

"Your reply illustrates my point, a court of law... We are discussing history, nothing as serious as can be compared to a court."

Er, you were the one who introduced the phrase "guilty as charged" when you were slagging people off. My point was precisely that this was not a court of law and that the phrase was inappropriate, especially when used to describe the pejorative which you had applied so intemperately to others.

"My point is, and I say it again, a balanced analysis of all of the evidence is what is required which takes in but does not discount valid historical sources. I am not looking for a simple answer, more the opposite, recognising that multiple sources will throw up a more complex view and these should not be brashly dismissed."

I understood your point even though I thought it unnecessary. It was the slagging off of person or persons unknown that you incorporated into your comments that was confusing me.

"Having a heated tone, carefully selecting quotes to create argument illustrates my point about a topic not reading well. I made a point about rivet counters - an inflammatory phrase for modellers, I know and I apologise but a 'my view is correct' attitude is reminiscent of this."

Not sure about "heated tone" in the written word (block capitals? letters typed in red? webpage catching fire? ) but quotes can only be selected if the words have already been said or written. If you don't care for them being quoted back at you perhaps you should think twice about making them in the first place. As for the "topic not reading well" perhaps to avoid the chaos of free expression we should first submit our intended posts to you to correct, mark and approve so that the topic "reads well"? But who made you the linguistic and literary Sheriff of Dodge?

"To answer your personal point, I teach my students to carefully evaluate all evidence and respect the views of others. If you read my last post I use the word respect a lot."

You might use the word respect a lot but I can't see much evidence, balanced or otherwise, of its practical application in your comments so far. And, with respect, we here are not your students.

"Now please can we look at the value of the evidence on this topic in its entirety and see if we can draw conclusions which modellers like me can learn from."

Er, that was what we were doing before you decided parading your credentials and delivering a patronising lecture would somehow add to the discourse. The Mark/Nick/Graham impasse on this is a well trodden jousting ground and on my part bears no ill will. All three I suggest, with due modesty, have endeavoured to contribute more here than you have.

"Banter mode on: Am I also to assume from your last post that you don't like beer banter mode off;"

You seem to assume, or presume, rather a lot. I like beer well enough but I am very particular about who I drink it with. Xin Loi!

Nick

[Edgar]

[Edgar]

I've been trying to add some writing to the above card, but this site adamantly refuses to allow the "edit" button to work, so I must add it here. This card appears in a file, with absolutely no other paperwork to explain its use (if any.) In the bottom left corner there's a hint to changes of names, but it remains a total enigma, which is why I always caution against guesswork.

[MilneBay]

Thanks for those colour chips Edgar.

[Algie75]

Yawn... You prove my point with every post Nick, if that's the case I am happy to remain damned by you for having the temerity to question the quality of debate rather than information. I'll keep it short so you can easily quote. Can we then move onto the topic?

Thanks for the colour chips Edgar, it's interesting how colours look in reality to how you imagine them.

[Nick Millman]

"Yawn... You prove my point with every post Nick, if that's the case I am happy to remain damned by you for having the temerity to question the quality of debate rather than information. I'll keep it short so you can easily quote. Can we then move onto the topic?"

It was not your temerity at issue, Algie, but the quality of "debate" and the "information" in your "questioning" . . .

And you were the one who interrupted this topic, slagged people off and set us down this diversionary discourse in the first place. What were you expecting? That there would be no return fire to your sniping?

Nick

[Shar2]

Play nicely boys. Any more personal "attacks" and this thread will be locked.

[Algie75]

Nick I want to read the thread, I want to learn from you and your friends on here, the information you have is valuable and informative. I learnt something from Edgar this morning with regards to paint that I may not see elsewhere on the internet.

There is a difference between sharing information and going round in circles with refusal to recognise the views of others. I was critical, yes, maybe overly so, in that case I apologise.

But you need to understand, such dogmatic views come across badly and reinforce the view of crushing know it all bores. Please note I said views, I am not calling you or your friends that. The refusal to accept any form of criticism or even recognise the validity in anything I have said with regards to sources just reinforces this point. If I have been over harsh then I again apologise but I will not be forced off of a thread for holding a mirror up to certain attitudes.

If you and your friends want to debate an often worn path on who is right than do it together in a pub or model show, not on a thread which should be used for information.

Shar 2, I apologise, this is the last I say on the this, regardless of replies. I hope the thread stays open as, I want to learn from people like Nick.

Nick, I hope on this thread and others we can positively converse, I am sure there are some things I can learn from you and you might even find something I say of value.

[woody37]

A recent thread even warned off any serious data being contributed - "I want to know but I want it easy and on my terms". Right-o, I thought and passed on by, your loss chum.

Nick

I suspect that thread could of been mine about the MS-406 Nick and indeed you are right, I wanted it on my terms. I wasn't intending to offend anyone, just wanted some roundabouts answers that didn't deteriorate into an argument...like this one !

I do agree that some information will clearly pass me by in requesting that, however I took that on board when making the request.

ps. I'm very happy with the responses that were posted, so thanks guys

Neil

[Nick Millman]

That's ok. I realised that you probably didn't want a chemical treatise on why so many supposed colour matches to French light blue grey are actually light blue green aka turquoise!

JOAN has now posted a colour chart in that 406 thread that looks very good. The light blue grey looks like - er - light blue grey (the clue is in the name)!

Nick

[gingerbob]

You molecule counter, you!

bob

p.s. My Gladiatorial interests tend to run toward more Northern climes, but sometime I would like to do the one Roald Dahl pranged. And while I'm not normally a 72nder, I'd love to have a look at the new Glad.

[ClaudioN]

Dear all,

I am amazed at how some topics lend themselves to stirring such heated debates...

Coming back on topic, I'd like to summarise what I gathered about Gladiators in Egypt, by reading through several books and web sites. Please keep in mind I'm only going to write what I understood so far, as I have been picking up fragments and trying to assemble them into a plausible picture.

No criticisms intended to anybody. On the contrary, I'd be glad to receive some advice.

First Gladiator squadron in Egypt was No. 33, which was reinforced by No. 80 during 1938. Both initially flew uncamouflaged aircraft in the K and L serial ranges. Gladiators of 33 and 80 Sqns must therefore have been painted up locally. A few black and white pictures of camouflaged (or partly camouflaged) machines, taken before the start of hostilities in North Africa (i.e., before June 1940) show very contrasting shades of grey for the upper camouflage, which makes me think at least one colour in the scheme differed from TLS.

No. 112 Sqn. was added to the fighter strength in 1939, arriving in Alexandria aboard HMS Argus. There are pictures of camouflaged 112 Sqn. Gladiators on railway cars, being moved to Helwan, which I believe refer to the squadron arrival. Camouflage appears to me standard TLS (without shadow shading, I'd think) and makes me assume aircraft were possibly camouflaged in Britain before dispatch. I have not yet seen any 112 Sqn picture with strongly contrasting grey shades, but I do not wish to draw any firm conclusion from this.

Wartime, i.e., post-June 1940 pictures of NW-coded 33 Sqn machines (then passed on to 3 Sqn RAAF), as well as some uncoded machines from other units, suggest that later Gladiators in the N serial range may have been finished in the four-colur "shadow shading" TLS, if this was the original factory finish. Or in a multicolour scheme of some sort, if camouflage was revised locally.

The document posted by Stefaan Bouwer begins by stating explicitly "(...) it is considered advisable to summarise the present position, including impending changes." I have no experience studying this kind of documents, but it does not appear to be a camouflage order. I also notice the term "Dark Brown" is used throughout in place of "Dark Earth", which might hint no strict reference to officially approved terms was made (arguably, Light (Middle East) Blue wasn't official, either).

If it is just a summary of the colour situation in late August 1940, as it claims to be, I do not find the document particularly upsetting. Hurricanes mentioned there are clearly those flown in late June via France. Given how they were pressed into service, I do not find unreasonable they may have retained the TLS scheme two months later. According to Brian Cull ("Hurricanes over Tobruk") Hurricanes of 73 Sqn., newly arrived to Egypt in December 1940, also retained "European style" camouflage, at least initially (in this case, pressure from Operation Compass may have delayed attempts at refinishing the aircraft).

As far as Gladiators are concerned, the Light Earth/Mid-Stone/TLS controversy appears to be restricted to little more than six months. 33 Sqn. was re-equipped with Hurricanes by the end of October 1940, 80 Sqn. moved to Greece in November 1940, 112 Sqn. followed in January 1941. Finally, 3 Sqn. RAAF received Hurricanes in February 1941. By the time the controversial AMO calling for Mid-Stone and Dark Green camouflage was issued, few Gladiators must have remained in front-line units, in Egypt at least.

I'd be glad to learn what is the view on the points above.

Best regards

Claudio

Edited December 15, 2013 by ClaudioN

[Test Graham]

This seems a pretty good account to me, but as Gladiators were still in use in the Syrian campaign, they didn't disappear quite that quickly from front-line units. Not counting those in Greece, of course, including fighter-recce ones. However, as the evidence for the DG/MS scheme only points to new aircraft being painted in these colours before leaving the UK (if it applies to any at all) I don't expect there to have been any Gladiators in this combination.