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Dont Ever Ever Ever tell me u.f.o,s Dont exist?


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Isn't it a real shame that this topic gets more posts than a topic on actual REAL space related matters?

To be fair REAL (sic) space is a specalised field of intrest espcially when it comes to modelling which is the primary reason we are all here.

Whereas the debate on the subject "are Ailens here on earth flying in exotic craft" requires little knowledge (as would be needed in a REAL space discussion for example) so it attracts far more members willing to place a comment.

I would not generally post in certain threads like those relating to say motorcycles or ships because I would not have any experience to drawn upon to contribute meaningfuly.... but hey! a discussion on Aliens... well we all have a view on that...

Unless of course this thread is soley for those who have actual experience of aliens then I will gladly leave forthwith.

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However given the size and age of the universe its almost a mathematical certainty that they are cruising around out there somewhere, but as I said, whether we'd know anything about it would be entirely up to them (read the book in my signature for an idea of how such an encounter might go). B)

You state "its almost a mathematical certainty that ..." and base your assumption on "the size of the universe". Now as we know the universe is kind of big, some might even say very big. But that does nothing for your assumption about alien life.

If we postulate that life as we know it is possible on one in one hundred worlds, and that where its possible develops on say one in a hundred cases, and that one in one hundred of the times life develops it becomes intelligent (I'll leave discussion of what qualifies as intelligent for others). Then intelligent life would appear on 1 in 1,000,000 worlds. Given the aforementioned biggness of the universe then your statement about its liklihood would be valid.

But there are at least three assumptions here

1. The liklihood of a world being able to support life

2. The liklihood that a world that can support life does indeed develop life

3. The liklihood that life once developed becomes intelligent

We actually have zero information on the probabilities of any of those assumptions. I suggested 0.01 (1 in a hundred) but it could be 1 in 5 or 1 in 5 million or any other number. There's no evidence to support your "mathematical certainty" statement. Even given the biggness and the fact that there are therefore an awfully large number of worlds. The probability of life or intelligent life might be incredibly tiny. Or as Star Trek and Doctor Who suggest there might be life in pratically every star system. The problem is that at present we have no way of estimating the liklihood of that.

The real question surely has to be, if there is intelligent life out there then are there scale models of their spaceships. What modelling techniques have they developed. Most importantly could we have some of their kits.

Edited by davidoflondon
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Taking the numbers game aside for a moment, to quote some lyrics... we are stardust... (or at least a product of chemical and mineral ejecta from volcanoes), and there is a hell of a lot of that about.

If the materials are there, the possibility cannot be discounted.

It's rather like a people here on Earth claiming they are the 'chosen ones' when they are surrounded by others who are their equal and are made with identical DNA.

We exist, it certainly is not impossible for other life forms to exist.

A question that I have long considered is whether we evolved independently, or have we been put here as it is a life supporting planet, or have we been 'engineered' as we seek to engineer and modify other life forms on Earth?

There are ancient civilisations and writings that lean towards the latter. I for one would love to know.

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Taking the numbers game aside for a moment, to quote some lyrics... we are stardust... (or at least a product of chemical and mineral ejecta from volcanoes), and there is a hell of a lot of that about.

Actually although in my previous post I said we have "zero" information on the liklihood of life I did read a science article that pointed out the liklihood that for life to developed it would need long chain molecules such as our DNA. As we know our life is based on carbon largely due to its propensity to create such long chain molecules.

Anyway the article pointed out that the first stars that form in any given galaxy do so from hydrogen atoms, as those stars age at their core through nuclear fusion they create atoms with higher atomic numbers. When in due course the stars explode and die those higher atomic number elements are thrown out and eventually become the core of newer stars, which in turn continue the process of nuclear fusion and increasing the atomic elements.

The point being that the article suggested that it would only be the younger stars in any given galaxy that would have enough quatities of the higher elements to create the complex long chains that are the basis of our life. As such the article said that its not a coincidence that we're on the outer arm of our galaxy but actually a necessary pre-requisite for life.

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We exist, it certainly is not impossible for other life forms to exist.

The question is not do other life forms exist... I have no problem in accepting the possibility indeed the near certainty of life beyond earth...

The question being asked is are any intelegent life forms (not originating on earth) currently here now and periodically flying unidentified craft... just because I admit life most likely exist somewhere else besides earth whe have not discovered any life supporting planet.... besides our own at least not yet.

I believe some european scientists have discovered as many as 3 earth like planet's beyond our solar system but no life.

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I agree, do aliens visit us? Certainly someone or something seems to share our airspace. There remains the small percentage of sightings that remain unexplained (to joe public), but with the credible reports from highly trained individuals, it would seem, in their words, that the 'objects' that have been observed show all the signs of being under intelligent control.

If we aren't flying them, who is? To go back to Penniston, 'we have nothing that advanced' and where do they come from?

The WW2 'Foo Fighters' were way ahead in terms of performance compared to or piston engined craft. If they had been developed here on Earth by Humans, they would have dominated any combat situation, yet we soldiered on with old tech, and still do by comparison.

Even if they were 'unmanned', why 70 years later do we still not have stuff that capable? In general the military has a 30 year development lead on stuff released into the public domain, that still leaves a 40 year gap, and all the technologically advanced nations report these things, and wonder what they are, unless of course our professional pilots and observers are all on 'pot'.

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The discussion on the possibility of biology occuring on other planets (or moons) is a worthwhile discussion with lots of new scientific data coming in all the time. This is a very different discussion to that of whether some of that biology might be paying us rather odd and rather dumb sounding flying visits.

The likelihood of habitable planets near earth is growing all the time. Whether any of these planets are actually inhabited by anything is another matter entirely.

But it is a fascinating new area of astronomy and one I am keeping a watching brief on.

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Going back to the 'Time Travelers' momentarily......Discovered some excellent comics! :coolio:

http://dresdencodak.com/

This one relates to the point I was trying to make earlier, but demonstrates a possible way around the problem:

2007-09-04-an_exotic_matter.jpg

How clever is that.....What a cool comic! :thumbsup:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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Huge, huge assumptions are being made here and it also missing one word, evidence.

Marty...

That's just not so Marty.....There are plenty of radar/visual sightings, with radar records providiing corroborating evidence for the visual sightings, which supports their value as evidence. :nerd:

But like all evidence, both are still open to interpretation, by 'Experts'. :pipe:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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That's just not so Marty.....There are plenty of radar/visual sightings, with radar records providiing corroborating evidence for the visual sightings, which supports their value as evidence. :nerd:

But like all evidence, both are still open to interpretation, by 'Experts'. :pipe:

There certainly has been plenty of evidence as recorded by the MOD.

In reference to my sighting, has any-one else on this site had a sighting of what they would refer to as unidentified?

I can only think of one person who I have known personally who has seen a UFO and was in a local paper. This ufo was sighted around the same time as the Rendlesham UFO and seen during the day in Stowupland in Suffolk.

I was talking with an acquaintance who's an engineer on the Apaches at Wattisham & I was asking if there's any "equipment" that can fly without any evidence of engine noise, and he said that so far it's impossible for anything not to be heard from the ground.

Martin

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I thought I had.....An ex-girlfriend and I watched a glittering diamond rotating steadily in the sky over Worcester.....Then in the blink of an eye it just disappeared. :analintruder:

Turns out it was a kite lifting the pollen count thingy down in Barbourne.....Once the sample has been accquired, the kite collapses and it effectively vanishes if viewed from any distance. :pipe:

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Here you go: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ufos/

Several other countries have released their 'UFO Files' too.....Thought I had alist of links to 'em all, but I can't find it! :doh:

I've got documents for one or two interesting ones somewhere if you want to read some in depth stuff.....Might take me a while to find it though. :nerd:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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Here you go: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ufos/

Several other countries have released their 'UFO Files' too.....Thought I had alist of links to 'em all, but I can't find it! :doh:

I've got documents for one or two interesting ones somewhere if you want to read some in depth stuff.....Might take me a while to find it though. :nerd:

Sgt. Squarehead, you beat me to it!

I did mean evidence of records of sightings. Corroborating and otherwise.

People have been making statements of sightings for years and have recorded sound & film.

Whatever any-one believes these sightings were of is another matter, each to their own.

Even though there is no longer any official dpt that records this sort of thing, people will continue to see things that they don't understand. That also goes for pilots etc and people in the aviation profession.

I had a sighting, I was genuine ( i didn't believe they were of alien origin) & made a full report & was taken seriously. Knowing at the time that sightings were recorded by the police at Martlesham heath I thought why not.

It's not something I would make a habit of unless I could truly discount all other possibilities.

All that remains are questions. Which really applies to all the reports in those National Archive files. No clear cut answers.

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Why are all the photos and film/video clips so poor. Surely, after all these decades and the thousands of "sightings", somebody, somewhere should have got at least one, decent and conclusive image.

And surely, after all these years, there should be some piece of material from one of these craft.

Reports are words - nothing more. Words are never "evidence".

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From reading reports, many good pictures do exist. Often the public will hand them over to the authorities as evidence, never to get them back. I'm sure if ever I got a decent photo of a craft, it would go to a research group.

The media are subject to 'D' Notices, so you can be sure nothing definitive will be put in the public domain.

I referred to Timothy Good. If you read some of his books, there are some excellent colour photos in them.

Not everyone had a decent camera about their person when these objects suddenly appear, and unless you are talking about roll film, a modern digital image can be manipulated far too easily.

You may recall this clip being shown back in 1989.

The footage was shot as part of a TV investigation into crop circles, and an account can be found in Reg Presley's (Ex Troggs) book 'Wild Things They Don't Tell Us'. He was present at the filming, and confirmed a Ministry official was present ready to serve a 'D' Notice if anything to embarrasing was filmed. There were too many witnesses present for this film to have been tampered with.

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Is that the best proof that can be dragged up?

That is proof of absolutely nothing.

Come on - as I said, I want genuine HARD proof - materials, metals, actual aliens turning up and demanding to talk to people that matter - like me :)

Not schlocky faked videos.

The whole subject is a total pile of excrement of the highest order packed full of liars, charlatans, idiots, the guillible, the deranged and generally people who should not really be allowed out too often - for their own good.

In all my 5 decades plus on the planet and having read and seen lots on the matter over those years NOTHING of any serious note has ever been presented in such a way that it was even REMOTELY conclusive in any way, shape or form.

I love space technology.

I love space science.

I am interested in cosmology.

I would LOVE there to be space faring aliens dropping by to say hello every other day.

BUT, despite being generally predisposed to accepting the existence of alien life and possibly even alien intelligence, I cannot bring myself to accept that anything that emanates out of this branch of "interest in aliens" is any indication of any sort of intelligent life either in space - or on earth.

.

Edited by Eric Mc
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I would give you an argument here, considering the background to the Rendlesham incident, which was virtually in my back yard. An ex of mine was a witness at 60 feet away, and I know several more.

I have also met and discussed the matter with the 3 Security Policemen who attended on two out of the three consecutive nights and touched the craft.

Never mind the huge cover-up, and the American hit squad from Ramstein in Noddy Suits handling the radiation problem.....then there is the distorted vegetation that remains to this day...the stuff they didn't get round to cutting down and replanting.....and the dead spots where nothing grows in the forest and the field.

I've never told anybody about this apart from a very serious person from HMGovt at the time but...at the same time frame as the Rendlesham incident me and our family saw something extremely similar at the opposite end of Suffolk in Clare. Bright light, no noise, the trees in front of it not being moved about by a helicopter down draft. Approximately due south of us was RAF Wethersfield and a very bright omni-directional light used to flash at night in varying patterns. This night it stopped much earlier than usual. Me and Dad headed out to look and after a few minutes the light suddenly went out and disappeared. Dad thought he saw something at height but my vision took longer to recover. A few weeks later the Police used an Army helicopter with a searchlight to look for a body in the river, the light was not even a 10th as bright.....or as large. Very strange whatever it was it was a UFO to us.

I have absolutely no doubt that alien life exists somewhere in the universe. I also have absolutely no doubt that those aliens are not visiting us at the moment.

I once read that we could build an insterstellar spaceship at our current level of technology but it would take the entire GDP of every country on on the planet for the next 300 years to pay for it. Interstellar travel is always going to be a very expensive venture. For aliens to want to come to Earth, there would have to be a very compelling economic reason and so it's very unlikely indeed that they would hide their presence once they arrived.

Of they were here, we'd all know about it.

People don't understand just how big this galaxy is let alone the universe. The Drake Equation suggests there are ~10,000 active civisilations in our Galaxy. However our Galaxy is quite big so a quick calculation suggests one civilisation for every 3142 cubic light years ie a cube 14.64 light years on a side. We are in a sparsely starred part of the galaxy so the distance will be greater than this and less nearer the centre.

The fastest manned spacecraft ever was Apollo 10 which achieved 36,397 ft/sec which is 39,937 kph, to get to our nearest star at this speed would take 114,000 years....

If we are ever visited by ET (I agree I would not use the never word either), contact will probably be made in a form we as 21st Century humans would struggle to comprehend. Look at voyager for example (yes I know it's primitive) but it took 36 year just to leave the solar system. I don't think we can comprehend the distances and energy required for an interstellar journey.

Alien visitation I think is highly unlikely to a big lumbering space ship as depicted in say "Independence Day' and a host of other sci-fi hoving into view one day. It's more likely in my opinion to along the lines as Sagan depicts in 'Contact' or Clarke in '2001'.

Studies in UFO sightings have proved there is a direct correlation between the number of sightings and times of World tension. I'm pretty sure that UFOs are a convenient way for the men in the Ministry to cover their tracks and to disguise some of their less desirable activity and a really good way of deflecting attention away from "black projects" from the publics gaze. It's also a good way subliminally planting into Joe Public mind there is an unseen menace, after all one mans bug eyed alien, is another ones, red under the bed.

Marty...

Agree completely, it's almost as if the sightings are reported widely to distract the public from the tensions :shrug:

I think the Late Great Iain M Banks got it right in State of The Art, we may have been visited by aliens who have then stood back and let us run as a control civilisation. There may/may not be observation equipment we are currently unable to detect, if and when we do such equipment may act like TMA 1 in 2001 and signal the civilisation who left it :ninja:

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Is that the best proof that can be dragged up?

.

That is an example of footage taken with the ministry breathing down the neck of the camera crew, at a location where activity is commonplace. Do you seriously think YouTube would be allowed to show footage that the Mainstream are prevented from showing?

If you can summon up a UFO on demand when you have a camera and carte blanche to publish what you record, then I would love to be there, just let me know :popcorn:

Sleeper Service, as Lightningboy2000 stated, Clare and Stowupland aren't exactly miles apart or from Bentwaters, you have Wattisham in between as well. As the crow flies, you can almost draw a straight line between them, and pass Debach on the way, where another friend lives who has seen strange craft around the same time.

I notice that several of the posters in this thread are local to this area, and I'm fairly certain you have experience or know other locals who have seen strange objects, especially when the Americans were still here.

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People don't understand just how big this galaxy is let alone the universe. The Drake Equation suggests there are ~10,000 active civisilations in our Galaxy. However our Galaxy is quite big so a quick calculation suggests one civilisation for every 3142 cubic light years ie a cube 14.64 light years on a side. We are in a sparsely starred part of the galaxy so the distance will be greater than this and less nearer the centre.

Agree completely, it's almost as if the sightings are reported widely to distract the public from the tensions :shrug:

The problem with the Drake equation is it is based on constants and everything being equal, which certainly won't be the case and therefore it over estimates the situation and volume of life within the the Universe, that said I believe it does it exist somewhere is some form intelligent or not. What is not happening, is alien visitation to to this tiny and insignificant planet.

I would agree the so called UFO phenomenon is manner for heaven as a distraction tool from those that want to use it in that way.

Sorry just far too much fakery and hyperbole, to be anything approaching credible.

Marty...

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The Twin Base complex of Bentwaters/Woodbridge, in Rendlesham Forest, was the largest American repository of free fall nuclear weapons outside CONUS. For decades the bases housed a First Strike wing of the USAF tasked with a one way ticket with Instant Sunshine for Mother Russia.

As has been stated, UFO's or similar unidentified craft have been well reported on overflying nuclear establishments. The are accounts on record of them appearing over Minuteman silos and rendering the missiles inoperative.

There is a vast amount of accredited testimony about this stuff, it's simply that the PTB don't want it publicly acknowledged. The primary reason appears they feel it would undermine organised Religion and cause mass panic. Don't forget, the PTB want/need/intend to keep CONTROL of the masses. Have you noticed whenever UFO's are discussed in the Mainstream Media, the stories are always ridiculed and witnesses treated as though they are deluded?

Can you think of another subject in the media, or elsewhere that is treated thus?

Please do some research. This is a good place to start.

http://www.timothygood.co.uk/

Don't forget, when these things were sighted by aircrew in WW2, by all sides, the High Commands looked into it, they all thought each other had something new and fantastic they didn't know about. Churchill ordered a high level review into it. The results for some reason never get published. Truman and Eisenhower both ordered reports. Carter saw a UFO of his own when he was in the USN, Sen Barry Goldwater stated he would put it in the public domain if he took office. Curtis Le May was called at Wright Patterson and asked about Hangar 18.He blew his stack and told Goldwater never to refer to it again. I understand it killed their friendship.

The Russians discuss it openly, they have a television series about it, Many South American countries acknowledge it, and report it in their press, Likewise the Chinese. How come we ridicule it and make out witnesses are barking?

To quote a phrase....The Truth is Out There!

I'm not asking anyone to believe, I'm asking them to do their own research and come to an informed decision. A blanket 'I Don't Believe' doesn't cut it.

A number of years ago I wrote a letter to the Fortean times explaining why religion would not self implode should the existence of Aliens be proven. God is the creator of all living creatures and the creator of the universe. Of course this all depends on your religious leanings, Pantheism, Theism or Deism. And having seen the world fight itself pitting religion against religion in more recent times I'm now not so sure.

As former member of MUFORG ( Macclesfield Unidentified Flying Object Research Group) I have a interest in the subject matter.

Edited by tonyblue
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All you have is your opinion. Have you ever been there, or spoken to eyewitnesses? The Military involved? The local Police?

In the early '70s I was a disciple that worshiped at the temple of Von Dankien lapping up all of his books and films alike and even saw the 'Chariots of the Gods' on it first theatrical run at the ABC. Thinking I must be part of this gig that will blow modern civilisation and religion apart. I started to do my own research on this and on the world of the UFO phenomenon and pretty quickly came to the conclusion it was a world inhabited by charlatans, the misguided, lairs and those wanting to join up misaligned facts and determined to preach up one plus one equals thirty five. Where is the proof that Rendlesham was escalated to ministerial level? We will get usual tripe it's covered by the Official Secrets Acts, rather than it didn't happen.

Marty...

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