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Skua L2928 "S" of 801 NAS


expositor

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The FAA did not generally adopt Sky until September 1940, so their basic scheme will have been Sky Grey undersides. The FAA did usually adopt Fighter Command markings (eg later Sky bands and spinners) on their UK-based fighters, so it is possible that 801 Sq did. In Stuart Lloyd's book, Rocs and Skuas are seen with black port wing undersides, and 800 Sq Skuas on Ark Royal in July with what appears to be Sky. However he shows an 801 Sq aircraft in the autumn of 1940 with Sky Grey undersides, although the wing undersides are not shown.

So basically I would expect either Sky Grey, or Sky Grey with a black port wing. I don't have the particular photos you mention ready to hand to see if anything else can be gleaned from them.

Edited by Graham Boak
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All of the photos that I have seen depicting Skua`s and Roc`s at the time of Dunkirk show them to have Black and White lower wings, with Sky Grey sides and the lower fuselage mostly seemed to be Sky Grey too. They had roundels below the wings and the one on the black wing had a yellow outline.

Cheers

Tony

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Thanks GB and Tony,

This particular Skua was photo'd with what has been stated to be the TLS as the original Frog instructions depicted. However, as they were, I believe, rushed into service as fighters attached to Coastal Command, the painting of the upper surfaces was a bit more imperative than the undersides as they were in combat at lower altitudes...but hey, what do I know? The color divide was as the RAF fighters and not higher on the fuselage as contemporaneous FAA aircraft at sea.

The photo I referred to is in an article by Eric Brown, later published in his book "Wings at Sea."

Thanks again gents!

Edited by expositor
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I think that I know which photos you mean now,.......if there are three of them together with a low camo demarcation line then I think that they were later than the Dunkirk era and may have been from a second line unit?

Cheers

Tony

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My understanding is that 801 NAS, and maybe another, were put under RAF control attached to Coastal Command for the evacuation, hence the TLS repaint on the upper surfaces. The presence of that gas detector on the wing leads me to believe that the photo is from summer, 1940. You're right about the later 700-series squadron assignment. However, I believe that was later, after the Admiralty removed the Skua from first line service.

Regards!

Edited by expositor
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At some stage early in the war, the FAA was painting aircraft intended to be land-based in TLS, and carrier-borne aircraft in TSS. This can be seen in photos of Blackburn Rocs outside the Boulton Paul factory. I don't know of any particular application to Skuas. The lower demarcation with TSS was generally required by (or perhaps in) 1941. The gas detector patch was retained for some time after summer 1940.

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My understanding is that 801 NAS, and maybe another, were put under RAF control attached to Coastal Command for the evacuation, hence the TLS repaint on the upper surfaces. The presence of that gas detector on the wing leads me to believe that the photo is from summer, 1940. You're right about the later 700-series squadron assignment. However, I believe that was later, after the Admiralty removed the Skua from first line service.

Regards!

You are right that 801 NAS was put under the control of Coastal Command but I seriously doubt that the Skua`s and Roc`s were repainted in the TLS! Every photo that I have seen suggests that they retained their S.1.E scheme with the addition of Black and White undersides which had been applied during the Norwegian campaign but since then they had roundels allpied to the undersides, a yellow outline to the fuselage roundel and a fin flash.

Here is my 1/48th scale model of a Roc which was used during this period, when as well as fighter patrols (where a Roc shot down a Ju 88) the Rocs and Skuas also carried out dive bomber attacks too,....this aircraft being involved upon an attack against German gun positions on the French coast;

r7.jpg

roc51-2.jpg

Here is Skua from the Norwegian campaign;

64.jpg

And just for interest,...here is a Roc engaged on night operations over the Channel,......presumably against German E Boats;

roc5.jpg

Cheers

Tony

PS- I meant to add that Skua/Roc units were still carrier units even though it was detached to the RAF, they had been involved in the recent Norwegian campaign and would re embark to go to sea again shortly after the French debacle.

Edited by tonyot
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Hiya Mark,

Thanks for your kind remarks,......glad you like them.

It isn`t a dumb question at all,.......if remember correctly I think that the Light Stores Carriers came from the actual Special Hobby Roc kit, but they can also be found in the Tamiya Swordfish and on a brass etched fret from MDC which is for their British WW2 Weapons set, and this originally came with their excellent Swordfish kit and is well worth buying, it also has the bomb racks on it. There may have been some more kits released since with LSC`s too,...........I`m thinking of mounting a set on my Magna Sea Prince because as you probably know they were used well into the post war period.

The small bombs are Cooper bombs and came from the Aeroclub white metal range although quite a few WW1 British kits have these on the sprues too.

All the best

Tony

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Hello All,

Great models Tony, nicely done. I can only aspire to work like yours.

Maybe I shouldn't have assumed the Frog instructions were absolutely correct, but from other photos of 801 Skuas during the protracted campaign over Norway, the high-demarcation camouflage was obviously over painted, and since the scheme of the plane in question looks similar to contemporary B of B Spitfires, I thought the repaints were complete in the TLS colors. The Roc's which also took part in the evacuation however, do look like they're in the TSS as the colors are low contrast. Too bad there aren't any(?) photos with showing types from 801 at Dunkirk...unless someone here can find one?

Cheerio!

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When modelling Skuas and Rocs I wouldn`t go off the tone of the camouflage in b&w photos to judge what colour scheme was in place as the Skuas in particular where mostly painted in camo at sea using sketchy details so the colours were mostly hand mixed by the crews on board to try to resemble colours that they had never heard of before!

I`m not saying that you are wrong about low demarcation camo being used on Skuas over Norway, but I have never seen this scheme in place during the actual campaign,........the later scheme may have been used after the occupation during follow up ops from the Orkneys in 1941?

I recommend that you read The Fleet Air Arm Colours and Markings book by Stuart Lloyd which was published by Dalrymple and Verdun,...that should answer any questions that you may have plus it is a fantastic reference,

Cheers

Tony

PS- I did an article about the Skua and Roc in Model Aircraft Monthly too some years ago which might have some useful info and photos.

Edited by tonyot
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Hi Tony,

I only said, or meant to say, that the high color demarcation visible on 801 Skuas over Norway was painted over with the same or other colors with a low demarcation for Dunkirk. I have the book and didn't see any mention of specific 801 Skuas at Dunkirk, though I confess I have only looked to it as a reference and not read through it as I would a straight historical work; maybe I should?

I might have that magazine somewhere. Did that article concern a build of two Skuas, one in front-line service and the other in target tug livery; or so I recall...? Great article that, and very nice modelling. I'd forgotten about that one, will have to search for it!

Thanks!

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from other photos of 801 Skuas during the protracted campaign over Norway, the high-demarcation camouflage was obviously over painted, and since the scheme of the plane in question looks similar to contemporary B of B Spitfires, I thought the repaints were complete in the TLS colors. The Roc's which also took part in the evacuation however, do look like they're in the TSS as the colors are low contrast.

Expositer,

It is not known for sure when the photos of low demarcation Skuas and Rocs you refer to were actually taken. Secondary sources vary considerably on the date. I have seen the photo of L2928: S that you refer to variously captioned as May 1939, June 1940, April 1941 etc. There is one photograph at the IWM of Skuas in similar finish that is dated as April 1941 and in my view most of the evidence points to this date for the whole series.

I've never seen a photo of an 801 Skua from the Norwegian campaign with a low demarcation camouflage. Even by the late summer/autumn of 1940, all the photographs that I am aware of still show 801 Skuas in high demarcation to scheme S1E. Moreover, 801 was a nine aircraft Squadron during the Norwegian campaign (7A-7M), so a code of 'S' is not possible for this period (the code 'S' implies at least a 15 aircraft squadron). The codes on Skua and Rocs in the low demarcation photographs are generally high letters, which suggests a training squadron rather than a front line squadron. While it is possible that L2928:S was photographed 5.40-7.40 while with 759 Squadron, it seems more likely to have been photographed with 772 squadron at a later date.

However, I agree that whatever the date, the likely finish is TLS. There is a well-known photograph of two Rocs in low demarcation scheme, with L3118:O nearest the camera. One has what looks to be a replacement engine cowl that is much lighter - possibly indicating S1E with the rest of the airframe in TLS.

HTH,

IG

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Hiya Mark,

Thanks for your kind remarks,......glad you like them.

It isn`t a dumb question at all,.......if remember correctly I think that the Light Stores Carriers came from the actual Special Hobby Roc kit, but they can also be found in the Tamiya Swordfish and on a brass etched fret from MDC which is for their British WW2 Weapons set, and this originally came with their excellent Swordfish kit and is well worth buying, it also has the bomb racks on it. There may have been some more kits released since with LSC`s too,...........I`m thinking of mounting a set on my Magna Sea Prince because as you probably know they were used well into the post war period.

The small bombs are Cooper bombs and came from the Aeroclub white metal range although quite a few WW1 British kits have these on the sprues too.

All the best

Tony

They're beauts! Thanks for the info Tony.

Cheers,

Mark

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There is a well-known photograph of two Rocs in low demarcation scheme, with L3118:O nearest the camera. One has what looks to be a replacement engine cowl that is much lighter - possibly indicating S1E with the rest of the airframe in TLS.

Hi Ian,

If it's the pic I'm thinking of, the rear aircraft does, indeed, appear to have a replacement cowling but, to me, it seems to have the high-demarkation scheme. I think it would be a brave person who'd claim that the contrast between the cowling and the rest of the fuselage indicates TLS applied to the latter...although, as you observe, it's possible.

Thanks, again, for sharing your deep knowledge of FAA schemes and markings - you're a real boon to Britmodeller!

Cheers,

Mark

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Hi Tony,

I only said, or meant to say, that the high color demarcation visible on 801 Skuas over Norway was painted over with the same or other colors with a low demarcation for Dunkirk. I have the book and didn't see any mention of specific 801 Skuas at Dunkirk, though I confess I have only looked to it as a reference and not read through it as I would a straight historical work; maybe I should?

I might have that magazine somewhere. Did that article concern a build of two Skuas, one in front-line service and the other in target tug livery; or so I recall...? Great article that, and very nice modelling. I'd forgotten about that one, will have to search for it!

Thanks!

Yes that's the article,..hope it helps.

I`m glad that Ian has commented as he is `de man' when it comes to wartime Fleet Air Arm info and I`d follow his advice!

Cheers

Tony

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If it's the pic I'm thinking of, the rear aircraft does, indeed, appear to have a replacement cowling but, to me, it seems to have the high-demarkation scheme. I think it would be a brave person who'd claim that the contrast between the cowling and the rest of the fuselage indicates TLS applied to the latter...although, as you observe, it's possible.

Mark,

This is the picture I'm referring to. This seems to provide the best evidence for TLS for two reasons (though I agree that it is not conclusive) 1. If it is a replacement cowling on the rear aircraft, then the light colour on the cowling is presumably DSG. The colour seems a lot lighter than either of the colours on the rest of the airframe. 2. There were written instructions at the end of 1940 to 'partially camouflage' training aircraft in upper surface colours appropriate for their operational use, with yellow under surfaces, The AM instructions are reported in my book (p.96). Of course, this is not conclusive proof because 'operational use' could still have been interpreted as requiring TSS, but I'm of the view that training squadrons (other than deck landing training) would have been largely active over land rather than sea and therefore repainted in TLS. We know that the uppersurface camouflage was modified on some of these aircraft - as originally thety were part of front-line squadrons finished in high demarcation S1E. For these aircraft, the existing camouflage was either extended to the bottom of the fuselage sides or the entire upper surface colours were repainted in TLS. We will probably never know for sure. In the case of Rocs, some may have been factory finished in TLS. There is a photograph of a line-up of newly produced Rocs, some in S1E and the others in a low demarcation scheme. The only low demarcation scheme I know of in early 1940 is TLS.

IG

Image1-12_zps93770979.jpg

Edited by iang
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Ian,

For the rear aircraft, what I'm seeing is the lower two-thirds of the cowling being in Sky Grey with the upper segment in a darker colour. The actual shade, relative to the rest of the upper surfaces, is hard to discern because of halation on the cowling.

Wouldn't it be interesting if the undersurfaces of these aircraft were yellow? That would be striking! I always wondered why the upper camo on the fuselage didn't go all the way down to the wing root and maybe this is part of the answer.

Why oh why didn't Mr R Brown take some of his nice colour pics of these birds??? :)

Cheers,
Mark

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Hiya Mark,

Thanks for your kind remarks,......glad you like them.

It isn`t a dumb question at all,.......if remember correctly I think that the Light Stores Carriers came from the actual Special Hobby Roc kit, but they can also be found in the Tamiya Swordfish and on a brass etched fret from MDC which is for their British WW2 Weapons set, and this originally came with their excellent Swordfish kit and is well worth buying, it also has the bomb racks on it. There may have been some more kits released since with LSC`s too,...........I`m thinking of mounting a set on my Magna Sea Prince because as you probably know they were used well into the post war period.

The small bombs are Cooper bombs and came from the Aeroclub white metal range although quite a few WW1 British kits have these on the sprues too.

All the best

Tony

Cooper bombs in 1940!

Don't think so, they were long obsolete. probably skuas used 25Lb frag bombs. Light series carriers can be used for various stores up to 100lb.

Selwyn

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Hi Selwyn,

Problem is nobody (AFAIK) makes 1/48 bombs that could fit onto the LSC. Dunno if the Cooper bombs are "close enough" to at least look like the type of munition carried in WWII. I've an Airspeed Oxford sitting in my (ever growing) "to do" pile which I want to build as a 4 FTS airframe, Habbaniyah 1941, which was fitted with 2 LSCs and carried 8 small bombs. Unfortunately, finding the bits-and-pieces to do the conversion is frustratingly difficult!

Cheers,
Mark

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Expositer,

It is not known for sure when the photos of low demarcation Skuas and Rocs you refer to were actually taken. Secondary sources vary considerably on the date. I have seen the photo of L2928: S that you refer to variously captioned as May 1939, June 1940, April 1941 etc. There is one photograph at the IWM of Skuas in similar finish that is dated as April 1941 and in my view most of the evidence points to this date for the whole series.

I've never seen a photo of an 801 Skua from the Norwegian campaign with a low demarcation camouflage. Even by the late summer/autumn of 1940, all the photographs that I am aware of still show 801 Skuas in high demarcation to scheme S1E. Moreover, 801 was a nine aircraft Squadron during the Norwegian campaign (7A-7M), so a code of 'S' is not possible for this period (the code 'S' implies at least a 15 aircraft squadron). The codes on Skua and Rocs in the low demarcation photographs are generally high letters, which suggests a training squadron rather than a front line squadron. While it is possible that L2928:S was photographed 5.40-7.40 while with 759 Squadron, it seems more likely to have been photographed with 772 squadron at a later date.

However, I agree that whatever the date, the likely finish is TLS. There is a well-known photograph of two Rocs in low demarcation scheme, with L3118:O nearest the camera. One has what looks to be a replacement engine cowl that is much lighter - possibly indicating S1E with the rest of the airframe in TLS.

HTH,

IG

Thanks all, and Ian for taking the time!

Ian, to repeat, I only stated that the high demarcation grey and green Skuas flying over Norway were over painted with a low demarcation of the same or TLS colors sometime later in 1940, ostensibly as part of the fighter cover for Dunkirk. That said, I finally found my copy of 'Wings of the Navy' and saw the captions with a varying and obviously suspect series of dates. Your post makes it clear that those photos were most likely taken well after Dunkirk while in one of the 700-series squadrons after the Skua was removed from first-line service. That leads to another question; were all, or most, S1E-painted aircraft completely repainted in TLS when relegated to second-line service? I ask as I'm sure we've all seen pic's of fighters of the RN's fighter school in what clearly looks to be TSS. So, did the reg's require repainting in TLS for training a/c in Britain, or just new planes painted at the factory to be assigned to training?

Thanks again Ian for your time!

Edited by expositor
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Interesting thread, an area of FAA history that only mildly interest me as my reference doesn't strech that far back.

Lovely Roc Tony, didn't that and the Skua look ugly, it's good job the chief designer at Blackburns had learnt how to use French curves by the time they got to the Buccaneer!

Colin

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Ian, to repeat, I only stated that the high demarcation grey and green Skuas flying over Norway were over painted with a low demarcation of the same or TLS colors sometime later in 1940, ostensibly as part of the fighter cover for Dunkirk. That said, I finally found my copy of 'Wings of the Navy' and saw the captions with a varying and obviously suspect series of dates. Your post makes it clear that those photos were most likely taken well after Dunkirk while in one of the 700-series squadrons after the Skua was removed from first-line service. That leads to another question; were all, or most, S1E-painted aircraft completely repainted in TLS when relegated to second-line service? I ask as I'm sure we've all seen pic's of fighters of the RN's fighter school in what clearly looks to be TSS. So, did the reg's require repainting in TLS for training a/c in Britain, or just new planes painted at the factory to be assigned to training?

Personally, I have a hard time believing that Skuas would be repainted for the Dunkirk operation. Firstly, Dunkirk was most definitely a rush-job so I doubt the time was available for wholesale repainting of FAA Skuas. Secondly, the Dunkirk operation involved large amounts of time operating over the sea so there's a logical disconnect in repainting FAA aircraft in a land scheme just for that operation. Finally, operational flexibility would dictate that any front-line FAA unit employed for Dunkirk operations could, at a moment's notice, be retasked to deploy aboard a carrier for service in support of the Fleet which would demand a return to S1E.

Taken together, I see no logical reason why the Skuas would be repainted while they were in front-line service. That's not to say the camo didn't change once they adopted second-line roles but even here the evidence is equivocal. Sqn Ldr D H Clarke, who probably came closest to achieving a kill while flying a Roc assigned to an AACU, stated his aircraft was repainted in TLS but photos of his aircraft (complete with 'saint' marking on the rear fuselage) show a high demarkation line akin to S1E.

Bottom line, I believe, is that there were no absolutes and photographic evidence of a specific airframe at a specific time is needed to depict a model accurately. Thankfully, the work of IanG and others of his ilk have provided us with unprecedented access to photos of obscure FAA types like the Skua and Roc for which I, for one, will be eternally grateful!!

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