Prototype Javelin WD804 colours?

[belcherbits]

I have seen a couple photos of this aircraft in what appears to be a two colour,top over bottom scheme.

Of course, the two colours are not identified in the captions. Anyone know what it might be? I thought it might be aluminum over yellow, but I'd really appreciate a confirmation.

Thanks

Mike Belcher

[Duncan B]

According to Richard Franks in "Gloster Javelin" the colours were initially dark green and dark sea grey over medium sea grey with the demarkation halfway up the fuselage, the fin was medium sea grey.

Hope that helps.

Duncan B

[belcherbits]

Duncan

Thanks, but that very book has a photo which is obviously only one colour on top. That is the scheme I am looking for. It is the prototype before it was painted green and gray over grey.

Here is another shot. http://www.aviastar.org/gallery/javelin/javelin_2.jpg

Thanks

Mike

[sloegin57]

I have seen a couple photos of this aircraft in what appears to be a two colour,top over bottom scheme.

Of course, the two colours are not identified in the captions. Anyone know what it might be? I thought it might be aluminum over yellow, but I'd really appreciate a confirmation.

Thanks

Mike Belcher

Mike,

I know the photographs that you mean, dated October 1951. IMHO, these are photos taken of the prototype prior to painting being finally completed. If you look closely you will see that the upper surface of the port aileron has already been painted DSG/DG and it appears to me that the undersurface has already been painted MSG. The roundels, fin flashes and serials would have been and were painted on whilst the aircraft was bare metal - many Javelins first flew thus. The upper surface colour is a bit of a puzzle but Glosters were known to have used a dark grey primer, but not as dark as DSG, prior to the final top coat. It could well be that.

HTH

Dennis

[John R]

Surely it couldn't have been primer if the roundels were there. I would have thought that they were the last to be applied.

John

[Duncan B]

Surely it couldn't have been primer if the roundels were there. I would have thought that they were the last to be applied.

John

I can't speak for Glosters but I can say that I've seen on at least one RAF Phantom being painted and it was primed, then roundels, serial numbers and squadron marking applied and masked off before the top coat colours went on. (111 Sqn's XT863 in 1983)

Duncan B

[Selwyn]

I can't speak for Glosters but I can say that I've seen on at least one RAF Phantom being painted and it was primed, then roundels, serial numbers and squadron marking applied and masked off before the top coat colours went on. (111 Sqn's XT863 in 1983)

Duncan B

Even today on Typhoon it is common practice to fly new aircraft in primer with roundels and serials.

Selwyn

[sloegin57]

Surely it couldn't have been primer if the roundels were there. I would have thought that they were the last to be applied.

John

Quite the contrary John. On new-build aircraft they are usually the first thing to be applied normally over primer or bare metal. I well remember, as a boy, natural metal Javelins on air test out of Morton Valence in the skies over Gloucestershire. :-

I can't speak for Glosters but I can say that I've seen on at least one RAF Phantom being painted and it was primed, then roundels, serial numbers and squadron marking applied and masked off before the top coat colours went on. (111 Sqn's XT863 in 1983)

Duncan B

Yep, as Duncan said :-

Even today on Typhoon it is common practice to fly new aircraft in primer with roundels and serials.

Selwyn

Yep, as Selwyn said :-

HTH

Dennis

[Duncan B]

Yep, as Duncan said :-

Dennis

That is a great photo of a Javelin FAW8 and if I'm not mistaken that is XT863 getting painted in 1983. The story that was going around at the time (the painters told me at any rate) was that "G" was going to get the Black Arrows treatment for RIAT but High Wycombe said no, can you confirm?

Duncan B

[sloegin57]

That is a great photo of a Javelin FAW8 and if I'm not mistaken that is XT863 getting painted in 1983. The story that was going around at the time (the painters told me at any rate) was that "G" was going to get the Black Arrows treatment for RIAT but High Wycombe said no, can you confirm?

Duncan B

Oh yes Duncan, there's quite a story behind XT863 and I hope that Mike Belcher doesn't mind me going completely as this is supposed to be a Javelin thread.

The photo above was taken in July '83 when I was effectively at a loose end and due de-mob in the September. My replacement in Eng Ops had already been posted in and handed over to and I think it was either Tony Dawkins or W/O Bill Inches. whom I had known on 543 Sqdn and who had once dragged me off to Kai Tak to fit a flap to a Victor that had fallen off, who asked if I would mind "looking after" the paint team in the old Ark Royal hangar preparing Tremblers aircraft for the upcoming IAT.

At that time (July '83), the final decision on the colour had not been made and there was a blank period where nothing was done to the aircraft. The Squadron wanted to paint the aircraft Black but one half wanted Gloss Black, as they later got with "Black Mike" but the other half wanted it to be painted Matt Black with a swept "Cross of Jerusalem" on the fin, outlined in Red with yellow and red flames trailing behind. Their idea would have been the most evil looking Phantom ever seen. That idea was quashed quite early on but the idea of a black Phantom stayed.

Once the aircraft had been moved from ASF to Ark Royal hangar, despite the Royal Engineers being in there it was still known as that, the paint team, under Babs Wilcox (?) started rubbing down. As you stated on another thread, it was quite ghostly to see an 892 Squadron aircraft emerge from under the paint and bearing in mind the location - eerie to say the least. One of the WAAF's on the team who had a 'thing' about spiritualism ( I think her name was Penny something) was quite upset so she was stood down and a replacement found.

In the end it was AOC Scotland (Bairstow ?) who made the final colour decision on the grounds of cost. Not the cost of painting '863 up for IAT but the cost of restoring the standard colours. And he insisted that the standard Squadron markings be applied.

Oddly enough, I never saw her completed as soon after that shot was taken, I went to Oxford Air Training School and later Perth for my CAA A and C Licence courses as part of my Resettlement period. It was only through one of the Modeldecal sheets that I learnt that the aircraft had won the Concours d' Elegance trophy.

Dennis

[Duncan B]

Thanks for that Dennis, as time passes by my memory seems to enjoy playing tricks on me but I'm glad that I got the gist of the story right. It was a WRAF Cpl painter working on it that told me about the Black Arrow scheme at the time (I was sure that was in ASF but I could be wrong, as a keen modeller I would have been making as many visits to watch progress as I could get away with anyway).

My apologies Mike for the deviation that I've taken your thread on, back to Javelin business please.

Duncan B

[burcham8]

What was the shape and location of the second cockpit portholes on the Javelin prototype?

[neilfergylee]

12 hours ago, burcham8 said:

What was the shape and location of the second cockpit portholes on the Javelin prototype?

 

Round and small, see below.

 

[John R]

I asked the same question in August last year, completely forgetting I had seen and replied to this thread (poor old thing, it's his age you know) and got no answers.

What I wish to know is did it first fly in that primer/MSG scheme or was the full camouflage applied? Why would roundels be applied if it was not going to fly? Surely masking them in order to paint around them must have been a fiddly job although masking off the centre and tidying up the outer edges after applying the camouflage would have a simpler job.

Isn't research interesting/frustrating?

John

[Duncan B]

21 hours ago, John R said:

I asked the same question in August last year, completely forgetting I had seen and replied to this thread (poor old thing, it's his age you know) and got no answers.

What I wish to know is did it first fly in that primer/MSG scheme or was the full camouflage applied? Why would roundels be applied if it was not going to fly? Surely masking them in order to paint around them must have been a fiddly job although masking off the centre and tidying up the outer edges after applying the camouflage would have a simpler job.

Isn't research interesting/frustrating?

John

I will have a dig into my Javelin books later and se if I can answer the question whether it first flew in the primer over MSG or not for you. With regards to the roundels being applied before the top coats, as we modellers would expect to happen, it was fairly standard to apply them first and then mask them off. We'd have to get a painter on here to explain why they did it that way but that's what they did.

 

Duncan B