Airfix Hurricane Mk 1

[Doug Rogers]

Ah, Ok. Airfix getting clever these days!

[Test Graham]

The Hasegawa/Tamiya trick of capturing a soft plastic collar would seem to be worth generally adopting. Other than that it is interesting to see how the Airfix team are coming up with a number of refreshing ways of looking at old problems.

[Troy Smith]

Troy: I don't think the comment in 12DM in any way counts against the presence of fabric-winged aircraft with the units in France in May 1940, when these had been there for some time. I read it as referring to the state of replacement aircraft flown in after the start of the campaign. Indeed, the comment was made towards the end of the 12 days, after many new (and not so new) Hurricanes had already been flown in, which perhaps places it in better context.

Hi Graham

Yes, I think I misread the meaning of the original quote. Thanks for clarification.

I had a look at a link on BoB film here, which led to Hyperscale, and then to this

http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/top/p/hurricane.htm

which has a couple of photos I'd not seen before which are relevant to this thread.

Hurricane L2124, No. 501 Squadron in Villeneuve, France.

presumably early 1940. If the serial is correct presumably fabric winged. Perhaps not France as no underwing roundels [specified for planes in France] and still with aluminium under nose and rear fuselage, as well as a visible serial, often painted out on AASF planes.

wrecked Belgian Hurricane, caption says bombed but looks more made unservicable.

Note cut out roundel from fuselage fabric, souvenir hunters, and what looks like slashed fabric at rear wing panel.

hope of interest

T

[Test Graham]

Certainly interesting, but was 501 one of the AASF units? Perhaps I'm remembering it wrongly, but I think this referred only to 1 and 73 Sqs., not all the Hurricane units in France. I haven't noted before that serials were ever painted out in France. I wonder if this is just a remnant of the Munich period, when such things did happen - perhaps because the serial was sometimes seen on the rudder and this was repainted on AASF fighters? Now I have to query whether I've actually seen any Hurricanes with serials on the rudder... Now look what you've started.

[Rabbit Leader]

Can I just say that although I've seen many sprue shots of this kit - I don't think anyone has truly captured the excellence of Airfix's latest offering. This is truly one of those kits that's better viewed in the flesh.

Besides the 4 rather than 5 spoked wheels this kit must rate at a 9.75 / 10.

Looking forward to the Metal winged version with 85 Sqd. decals. The Boxart snippet looks like it's gonna be another winner.

Nice one..

Cheers.. Dave.

[Selwyn]

Just a quick query re a little diorama I am planning,

In several pictures I have seen of early Hurricane aircraft built with the two bladed prop the engine seems to be being started using a hand cranked inertial starter, rather than the Trolley Acc system more commonly seen than aircraft built with three blade props. In fact I have never yet seen a picture of a three blader started using a hand crank system!

Does anyone know if the early two blade Hurricane could be started both ways, and was the inertial system carried over to the later 3 blade built aircraft?

I do realise that there must have been some cross over on starting systems on aircraft retrofitted with the three blade prop.

Selwyn

[Col.]

I'd guess if the two and three blade airscrews were interchangable then there's no reason why not as the engine would have been identical. Don't know how far along the Merlin marks this feature continued though so perhaps there was a change somewhere in the serial range rather than aircraft mark designations

[Test Graham]

The Merlin Mk.III had a common sprue for the different propellers. If you look for the other Hurricane thread you'll find a comment about late production Merlin Mk.IIs also being able to take the DH prop. I suspect that the inertial starter may have been specific to the Merlin Mk.II but can't confirm.

[Edgar]

The Merlin manual hints at the hand-starting system still being fitted to the Merlin III & X (no mention of the XII.)

On the Spitfire, there was a hole in the starboard engine cover, level with the magneto, which had a (red on silver, I believe) label above it, advising that the man doing the winding should be roped to the u/c, to stop him falling into the prop, so I'd doubt that the system was very popular. On the Mk.V, a "Rotax NIKA/M boost coil was fitted 14-11-41, and (possibly in anticipation) in March 1941, on all Marks, the opportunity was taken to delete the hole and label.

Edgar

[Test Graham]

The Merlin XII had the Coffman starter, which is probably why there's no mention of a hand starter there.

[Enzo the Magnificent]

I received my kit a couple of hours ago. It's incredible!

It all bodes well for the Lightning and the Blenheim...

[Troy Smith]

Certainly interesting, but was 501 one of the AASF units? Perhaps I'm remembering it wrongly, but I think this referred only to 1 and 73 Sqs., not all the Hurricane units in France. I haven't noted before that serials were ever painted out in France. I wonder if this is just a remnant of the Munich period, when such things did happen - perhaps because the serial was sometimes seen on the rudder and this was repainted on AASF fighters? Now I have to query whether I've actually seen any Hurricanes with serials on the rudder... Now look what you've started.

HI Graham

I said 501 was not part of the AASF, though I thought 85 and 87 were, they certainly were in France during the phoney war, and there is a pic in linked thread here of an 87 Sq plane with a striped rudder.

[but I may be wrong and my books are in a box at the mo]

this old thread has some great France era 1 Sq photos, no serials visible.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/54350-po-moulds-hurricane-l1842-no1-squadron-france-1939

also an interesting comment from John Adams about possible use of french blue on AASF Hurricane undersides.

The photos I've seen of 85 sq in France of older planes have no serials, though Allard's N2319 does.

see here - http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234907653-hurricane-i-vy-cg-of-85-sqn-lille-seclin-around-apr-1940/

AFAIK it was RAF policy not to paint on control surfaces after a crash of a 43 Sq Fury in the 30's when they had checked rudder and elevators, and constant retouching to keep the paint job immaculate eventually unbalanced them, causing the practice to be banned, and I have no memory of seeing pre war Hurricanes with anything painted on the rudders.

Obviously now we have the contradiction of the AASF planes with painted rudders!

I presume that they must have been rebalanced afterwards, but apart this, and some stray D-day stripe painting, and late war Halifax group markings I can't think of any other examples of RAF planes with field applied paint on control surfaces.

cheers

T

[AlCZ]

On czech model forums are new Hurri widely disscused. And it is here found a problem. Upper wing may have a different shape as bottom wing (look here at photographic evidence:http://modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68170&start=3810) and may have a positive wingspan... Wing of Hurricane may be straight without any wingspan and new Hurri may have positive wingspan. ("As Lancaster"). Im not sure it is a error of pair pieces or all series... Can you confirm or deny it ?

[VMA131Marine]

On czech model forums are new Hurri widely disscused. And it is here found a problem. Upper wing may have a different shape as bottom wing (look here at photographic evidence:http://modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68170&start=3810) and may have a positive wingspan... Wing of Hurricane may be straight without any wingspan and new Hurri may have positive wingspan. ("As Lancaster"). Im not sure it is a error of pair pieces or all series... Can you confirm or deny it ?

I think you mean dihedral not "wingspan." The top surface of the hurricane wing should be straight from root to tip if you look at it from head-on. all the apparent dihedral is in the lower wing surface outboard from the start of the outer wing panel. On the new airfix kit it looks like there might be a very small amount of dihedral in the upper wing surface, but I'm not sure that this isn't just an optical illusion caused by the obvious dihedral in the mating surface with the lower wing half. If there is any dihedral in the upper wing surface it is very slight - a fraction of a millimeter.

Edit: On further review, the more I look at it, the more I think the upper wing surface is straight, or will be when it's glued to the lower wing surface.

Edited December 11, 2013 by VMA131Marine

[Heraldcoupe]

On czech model forums are new Hurri widely disscused. And it is here found a problem. Upper wing may have a different shape as bottom wing (look here at photographic evidence:http://modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68170&start=3810) and may have a positive wingspan... Wing of Hurricane may be straight without any wingspan and new Hurri may have positive wingspan. ("As Lancaster"). Im not sure it is a error of pair pieces or all series... Can you confirm or deny it ?

If I understand correctly, the discussion seems to be about the top wing surface being shorter than the underside. This is correct, the tip of the Hurricane wing turns down, it's something most manufacturers haven't noticed.

It may need a little dressing to lose the seam, I've yet to build mine so not fair to comment, but the idea is sound.

Cheers,

Bill.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Heraldcoupe

[Test Graham]

I agree that in this kit the bottom wing half is slightly longer than the top - and indeed fractionally wider too, which is much less noticeable. This does require some dressing, and should not be confused with the distinct drop in the wing top surface near the tip which is very well represented. The wing also requires some attention to create a thin trailing edge, by sanding away the inner surfaces much as on a limited-run tooling, if rather less than many!

Troy: serials were certainly painted on rudders in the days of the Fury, if not later. They are also seen on the fuselage of the majority of Hurricane photos I've seen from France, including 73, 85 and 87 squadrons.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Graham Boak

[AlCZ]

Yes, sorry, dihedral, mea culpa.

[Edgar]

The top surface of the hurricane wing should be straight from root to tip if you look at it from head-on. all the apparent dihedral is in the lower wing surface outboard from the start of the outer wing panel.

Sorry, but that is completely wrong, and very wide of the mark. With the aircraft tail jacked up, so the fuselage datum line is horizontal, the wing centre section should have zero dihedral, while the outer section, measured along the line of the front spar, should show a dihedral angle of 3 degrees (it was 3.5 on the prototype.) If the Airfix kit has dihedral on the outer wing section, it's perfectly correct.

Edgar

[Test Graham]

Certainly there is dihedral on the upper wing surface. I haven't seen any other reference to a dihedral change in the wing from the prototype to the Mk.I: Mason says nothing about the prototype in this respect but quotes 3.5 degrees for the datum for the Mk.I (and by exclusion, all subsequent variants) in both his original work for Macdonald and his later one for Aston. Other books don't even mention it, that I've found (so far). However, the Hurricane manual, a reprint of AP1564B, also says 3.5 degs for the "outer plane datum lines".

I suspect this is referring to the design datum inside the wing. I haven't found a reference for the dihedral as (more practically) actually measured along the top surface: could this be 3 degrees?

[Edgar]

Hurricane II Manual A.P.1564b Section 4 Chapter 3, Figure 8 "Rigging Diagram," shows the dihedral board laid along the line of the front spar, on top of the wing (I read the line underneath, in the "Leading Particulars," which shows the front spar sweepback as 3 degrees; in fact the dihedral remained at 3.5 degrees (proof, if it was ever needed, that I need new glasses - sorry.)

Edgar