occa Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 (edited) I found this interesting, don't know if it was known before that a color movie might exist that shows that scheme At 3:40 - 3:47, 3:52 -4:25 and 5:00 - 5:55 The colors obviously are a bit faded already at the time the film was made .... Edited November 2, 2013 by occa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Haven't seen the film before, but some 15 years ago I have built a B-17E wearing Hawaiian Depot camo as shown in the "Air Force Colors Vol.3 - Pacific and Home Front, 1942-1947" by Dana Bell and Betty Stadt, No.6152, published in 1997 by Squadron/Signal Publications Inc. as ISBN 0-89747-376-0. The ship bearing USAAC serial 41-2409 was flown as "Old Maid" within the 11th BG during the Guadalcanal campaign. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted November 4, 2013 Author Share Posted November 4, 2013 (edited) Yes that is the book where I got the idea from, as it appears the authors have come quite close with the colors they suggested. It's unlikely a similar scheme existed elswhere so I strongly assume the footage shows a plane with exactly that scheme. I would love to see a pic of your model. Cheers, Martin Edited November 4, 2013 by occa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 It was 15 years ago, Martin... At the moment I have no B-17 on my shelves at all and the "maid" mentioned has found her new home via Ebay years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Eisenman Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) Images: http://s36.photobucket.com/user/modeldad/slideshow/B-17%20Midway Edited November 7, 2013 by Steven Eisenman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) It was 15 years ago, Martin... At the moment I have no B-17 on my shelves at all and the "maid" mentioned has found her new home via Ebay years ago No problem at all. Images: http://s36.photobucket.com/user/modeldad/slideshow/B-17%20Midway Thank you for that Steven I went to J.J.Ethel's collection but they don't seem to have any pics there as far I looked. Cheers all, Martin Edited November 14, 2013 by occa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Here is one you might like. Lt Frank 'Fritz" Waskowitz' B-17E 'The Blue Goose' (41-2616) painted overall in DuCo Light Glossy Blue at the Hawaiian Air Depot and flown continuously on operations in that unusual scheme through at least one major re-build following combat damage until finally destroyed by a direct AA hit over Guadalcanal on 29 Sept 1942. At least one other B-17E flown in the SWPA in the little known HAD overall light blue scheme was Lt Ray Dau's 41-9324 Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) Here is one you might like. Lt Frank 'Fritz" Waskowitz' B-17E 'The Blue Goose' (41-2616) painted overall in DuCo Light Glossy Blue at the Hawaiian Air Depot and flown continuously on operations in that unusual scheme through at least one major re-build following combat damage until finally destroyed by a direct AA hit over Guadalcanal on 29 Sept 1942. At least one other B-17E flown in the SWPA in the little known HAD overall light blue scheme was Lt Ray Dau's 41-9324 Nick Very interesting Nick, do you have any indication or idea of the actual hue? I take it there are not many pics around in that scheme if any? Edited November 12, 2013 by occa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 I'm not sure. I have not seen a photograph of this aircraft that gives a clue as to the tone of the blue. Dana Bell asserts that the blue was applied for over water patrols but I'm not certain of the evidence, if any, for that and it doesn't seem to gel very well with the description of Light Glossy Blue, although it is difficult to imagine what other purpose the camouflage served - high altitude photo-recce? I have the DuCo catalogues for 1941 and there are no paints with that exact description or obvious appearance. Two possible contenders are Panama Blue Light which is a mid-toned, slightly greyish blue, lighter than FS 35109 but darker than FS 25177 and Barton Gray which despite its name is slightly duller, greyer and greener than the "sky blue" of FS 15526. The first mid-toned colour reminds me of the USN Blue-Gray (and therefore would have been suitable for over water patrols) and the second light toned colour of the under surface colour applied as "duck egg blue" on export aircraft and which might have been based on Light Blue 27 and applied as the under surface colour on the other camouflaged HAD B-17's. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted November 12, 2013 Author Share Posted November 12, 2013 Thanks Nick, as always from you it is very interesting info you gave !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donaldAnderson Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Very interesting topic! Nick's mention of the 11AF Waskowitz' B-17E 'The Blue Goose' (41-2616) got me very curious as I had never heard of a blue USAAC B-17 before. Reading Air Force Colors v3 more closely and sure enough. Also found mention of it in Fortress Against the Sun by Gene Salecker and B-17 Flying Fortress Units of the Pacific War by Martin Bowman. Salecker states the Light Glossy Blue Duco paint as being applied to 41-2616 at the Hawaiian Air Depot "perhaps as a test for a new camouflage scheme". Salecker also mentions another light blue B-17E (41-9234) of the 28BS 5AF in a Sept 11, 1942 mission against two IJN destroyers of the Trobriand Islands. Not sure of anything else about that one, yet. Are DuCo paints the primary aircraft paint acquired by the Hawaiian Air Depot or USAAC? I found this link to a 1941 Studebaker paint chip listing and it mentions various DuCo tints in the Panama Light Blue. Would these DuCo tints or pre-mixed colors be available in 1941/42 SWPA air depots? http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/chipdisplay.cgi?year=1941&manuf=Studebaker&info=yes&page=2 Thanks for sharing this info! Donald p.s. - The Blue Goose's fate apparently comes in two different versions - shot down by warship AA (Salecker & pacificwrecks.com) or downed in a collision with a A6M (if I read Bowman's Osprey passage correctly). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 DuCo was Du Pont's trade name for their range of automobile paint - nitrocellulose based. Du Pont was E.I. Du Pont De Nemours & Company in full. I do not know if the reference to DuCo in this instance really means paint from this line of car paints was used or it was just shorthand for Du Pont generally! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmat Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Grey Geese Calling, a privately printed book for the 11th Bomb Group (H) Association and written by W. M. Cleveland mentions The Blue Goose. I haven't reviewed the information recently, but the information in the book indicated that it was shot down by flak. I always wondered if the HAD had used Navy paint for the Blue Goose, but then there is no mention that the paint was the same as a Navy Patrol plane either, so I suspect that it might be different. It did stand out and the book also mentions that it attracted more than its share of AA. The Hawaii based B-17s did a lot of sea search missions so the over water scheme might make more sense than a recce scheme. There is no mention of a recon mission for 2616, just that it had a different paint job. I wonder if The Blue Goose was fitted with the SCR-521 radar like Typhoon McGoon II. http://themellowjihadi.com/2012/04/19/garden-state-diner/ Many of the OD 11th BG B-24s had the four rod antennas under the cockpit associated with a sea search radar. Possibly it might be the USN ASA Medium Wave ASV radar but with rod antennas. http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/b-24-liberator/b-24d-liberator-little-hiawatha-11th-bomb-group-nose-art-photo/ Many of the photos in Grey Geese Calling have the antennas cut out. Their NM B-24s with the SCR-717 radar behind the wheel well also had yagi antennas on each side if the nose. That's a sure sign of a mid to late radar equipped B-24 in the Pacific. This is what the book looks like, but it shows the back cover. Lots of interesting photos, albeit of smaller sizes and sometimes of poor reproduction or taken from poor photographs. No photos of The Blue Goose. Parts the the chapters seem like they were taken from the Association newsletters and one might wish that an aviation historian might have assisted Mr. Cleveland. But I would not dare suggest that to his face nor wish to take anything away from the efforts of the brave men. Thank you for your service and the great effort to make an invaluable resource. http://www.amazon.com/GREY-GEESE-CALLING-W-M-CLEVELAND/dp/B000JI9BAS I don't have the Turner book and now must now hunt for a copy of Fortress Against the Sun. Best wishes, Grant 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) Thanks Donald and Grant for more interesting todbits !! Edited November 14, 2013 by occa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I don't have the Turner book and now must now hunt for a copy of Fortress Against the Sun. Best wishes, Grant Hi Grant FWIW I can thoroughly recommend Fortress Against the Sun - a staggering depth of detail plotting the operations and fate of each unit and each B-17. The Pacific B-17 operations seem to be somewhat under reported and little known. For example the 28 January 1942 raid on Kuantan, Malaya by four B-17s from the 7th and 19th BGs, which had flown very long range from Malang, via Palembang. A 22-victory Nomonhan ace Sgt Maj Zenzaburo Ohtsuka of the 11th Sentai was killed together with pilots 1Lts Kikuo Koga, Hiroshi Ono and Cpl Hatsushi Haraguchi and an additional 27 personnel wounded when bombs fell amongst their Ki-27s on the strip as they were on their takeoff runs to intercept. One Ki-27 was destroyed and nine damaged, three of them seriously, the whole Chutai (squadron) being effectively put out of action by the single salvo. Regards Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve190 Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Donald said, " p.s. - The Blue Goose's fate apparently comes in two different versions - shot down by warship AA (Salecker & pacificwrecks.com) or downed in a collision with a A6M (if I read Bowman's Osprey passage correctly)." I pulled out Bowman's book and you are correct. "On the first run it's bombs failed to release, then on the second run it was attacked by Zeros. Rounds fired into the cockpit of one Zero forced its pilot to rear back, and he pulled the stick with him - this turned his fighter straight up, and it collied with the underbelly of the B-17, which was still loaded with bombs. It expoded in mid-air. . . 'Nobody got out. It left me with a cold sweat, and I have feared anti-aircraft ever since'" B-17 Flying Fortress Units Of The Pacific War. Martin Bowman, Osprey, p.76 Was it anti-aircraft rounds of friendly fire fired into the Zero that caused it to pulled up and collide with Blue Goose? At least that is what seems to be inferred by the eye witness. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) The colors here seem to be a bit deeper than in the obviously remastered version I posted first: I will have to look for a better copy tho ... The Youtube compression takes away too much resolution. Edited November 14, 2013 by occa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve190 Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Occa said "I will have to look for a better copy tho ..." John Ford's - Battle of Midway is available on several inexpensive DVD's sets remastered here in the USA. I also believe the remastered video was also available on VHS. At present my copies are in storage. Try looking for it on box sets on Amazon. Here John Ford answers questions about the film: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq81-8b.htm Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 (edited) Occa said "I will have to look for a better copy tho ..." John Ford's - Battle of Midway is available on several inexpensive DVD's sets remastered here in the USA. I also believe the remastered video was also available on VHS. At present my copies are in storage. Try looking for it on box sets on Amazon. Here John Ford answers questions about the film: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq81-8b.htm Steve Saw it meanwhile that it can be bought at lots of places, thanks !!! Here' are two screenshots from different video uploads to give an idea: Edited November 16, 2013 by occa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Birdsall Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 (edited) No, 41-9234 did not carry a Hawaiian Air Depot scheme. It was originally intended for the RAF and was finished in the Temperate Sea scheme. It carried that scheme in service with the 19th Bomb Group, but it's unclear if it had been wholly or partly retained when the aircraft crashed into a hillside in New Guinea in 1943. For more of the story of this remarkable plane check out www.aerovintage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=541&hilit=41%3D9234%E2%80%A6 Edited November 30, 2013 by Steve Birdsall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Birdsall Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 I’ve got an article about the eight B-17Es that arrived over Hawaii during the 7 December 1941 Pearl Harbor attacks.in the next issue of Aviation History that might be of interest (although there are still many questions to be answered). All eight were quickly reassigned to Hawaiian Air Force squadrons and overpainted with the unique multi-colored camouflage scheme to protect them on the ground. Initially used for patrol work and training, they ultimately ranged far and wide, serving in the 5th, 7th and 13th Air Forces in the South and Southwest Pacific. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted February 16, 2016 Author Share Posted February 16, 2016 Hi Steve, In the next issue you say? When will it be out ? Anyways thanks for the tip, that's enough reason for me to purchase it. Cheers, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Birdsall Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Hi Martin - I'm out in Australia so I'm not quite sure, but according to Aviation History's Facebook page it has "hit the streets" . . . sorry I can't be a bit more helpful. Edited February 17, 2016 by Steve Birdsall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Aceto Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Should be on the news stands by now. If anyone can't find it, pm me, especially those of you 'over there' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted February 28, 2016 Author Share Posted February 28, 2016 Should be on the news stands by now. If anyone can't find it, pm me, especially those of you 'over there' Thank You for the offer Ace, I will check today if they have it in the local magazine store and get back to you if they haven't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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