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Mikemx

Mig 15 question

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Now I have my new Eduard double MiG-15 kit, I'm going to get one of the made up along with my Hobby Boss one.

The Hobby Boss MiG-15 will be an Egyptian MiG-15Bis as used in the Suez Crisis and the first Eduard one I'm making is a MiG-15 of Jaroslav Sramek (Czech Air Force) 1953. This is the aircraft he used to shoot down a USAF F-84 that had strayed into Czech airspace.

I have the same question for both. Regarding drop tanks, I have 3 choices for each model - 1) none, 2) the small drop tanks that fasten directly to the wing, 3) the larger drop tanks suspended on pylons. Which should I use for each model?

thanks

Mike

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The second option was only on early MiG's.

I'm not sure, but for defence flights over the Czech territority the don't used drop tanks. Check pictures.

modelldoc

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Thanks, that's partly answered it, unless someone knows better.

Since my Egyptian MiG is a 15Bis, I'll go for option 3 and either option 1 or 2 for the Czech Mig, as I've found loads of colour plates and pictures of models with and without the tanks.

While I'm thinking about it, is there any worthwhile reference books on the Mig-15? I'm thinking more photo album (with some info) rather then a weighty tome that details it down to the last rivet.

thanks
Mike

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If you can find it, the Armada book from Russia (it's an In-Action type format) is the be-all and end-all reference on the MiG-15. Unfortunately it's all in Russian, but I downloaded an English translation of the text from somewhere once upon a time. Like most Russian types, almost everything that's been written in the west (ie: Hans Heiri Stapfer) is riddled with inaccuracies and long perpetuated myths. The Armada book is outstanding.

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Like most Russian types, almost everything that's been written in the west (ie: Hans Heiri Stapfer) is riddled with inaccuracies and long perpetuated myths.

Don't harsh the Stapfer. In pre-Internet days, those few of us with an interest in Soviet aircraft and who couldn't read Russian welcomed his "In Action" titles as almost our only source of information. These books are still useful. Inaccuracies and long-perpetuated myths? I'd be surprised if the error content was more than 1 or 2 percent. How many of those who criticize Stapfer's work today knew more than he did back when he wrote his stuff? What specific inaccuracies and myths are we talking about?

John

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Don't harsh the Stapfer. In pre-Internet days, those few of us with an interest in Soviet aircraft and who couldn't read Russian welcomed his "In Action" titles as almost our only source of information. These books are still useful. Inaccuracies and long-perpetuated myths? I'd be surprised if the error content was more than 1 or 2 percent. How many of those who criticize Stapfer's work today knew more than he did back when he wrote his stuff? What specific inaccuracies and myths are we talking about?

John

1 or 2 percent??? Censored.

More like 30-40 % error.

As for specific inaccuracies and myths, well the fact that Stapfer can't tell apart a MiG-21MF from a bis is more than enough proof. of

the "reliability" of said volumes. I could write pages and pages listing the errors in his books (I own the lot, even the ones he did for

Arms & Armour at the same time).

OK, these books are old and yes, when they were released the alternatives were far worst (Salamander anyone??? :S ) but nowadays I

wouldn't use them for anything else other than as a decent source of photos...

As for more knowledgeable people in the field of Russian aircraft at the time, I could, for one, name Bill Gunston and Piotr Butowski

Unfortunately they never worked for Squadron Signal.(Too expensive perhaps???)

Edited by Panoz
Swearing

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Photo of Šrámek´s MiG is is in newest eduard info 10/2013 :)))

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Okay, okay - maybe 1 or 2 percent was a bit too easy, considering how I already knew about a few errors myself. Regardless, I still respect Hans-Heiri Stapfer for his work as a pioneer of this subject in the English language.

John

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Mike PM sent re photos I have of the East Fortune Museum aircraft that I have if interested

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Photo of Šrámek´s MiG is is in newest eduard info 10/2013 :)))

Sadly the only photo of his Mig, is a close up of the canopy area, showing the ground crew painting on his 'kill' star.

thanks

Mike

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I edited Hans-Heiri's MiG-15 Walk Around when I was at Squadron-Signal, and don't remember any inaccuracies, and I attempted to fact-check everything that I was unsure of, given the limitations of Squad-Sig's own reference library and my own knowledge of the subject. Keep in mind that English is not Hans-Heiri's first language, and his original manuscript had some quaint terminology which was sometimes difficult to understand, but in the end I think we produced a pretty good book.

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I edited Hans-Heiri's MiG-15 Walk Around when I was at Squadron-Signal, and don't remember any inaccuracies, and I attempted to fact-check everything that I was unsure of, given the limitations of Squad-Sig's own reference library and my own knowledge of the subject. Keep in mind that English is not Hans-Heiri's first language, and his original manuscript had some quaint terminology which was sometimes difficult to understand, but in the end I think we produced a pretty good book.

Please bear in mind that we are talking about the "In action" titles on modern Russian types that he did in the late 80s/ early 90s not the "Walk

around" titles which are only a few years old and a different story altogether.

English is not my first language either...

Edited by Panoz

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Thanks, that's partly answered it, unless someone knows better.

Since my Egyptian MiG is a 15Bis, I'll go for option 3 and either option 1 or 2 for the Czech Mig, as I've found loads of colour plates and pictures of models with and without the tanks.

While I'm thinking about it, is there any worthwhile reference books on the Mig-15? I'm thinking more photo album (with some info) rather then a weighty tome that details it down to the last rivet.

Mike, sorry, but option 3 (MiG-17's drop tanks) on EAF MiG-15bis from October/November 1956 would be definitely wrong.

All the photos from that period - plus most of those from up to around 1958 (i.e. photos showing EAF MiG-15bis in their old, green-white-green markings) - show them carrying slipper type drop tanks.

For reference: it might sound as 'cheap advertisment', but for Egyptian MiG-15s - whether in regards of their markings (including serials!), equipment, etc. - there's simply nothing better but Arab MiGs Vols 1 and 2. They're no 'photo albums' and rather on weighty side - though not in regards of 'last rivet': we're simply stuffing them with all relevant operational data and photos.

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I was thinking the slipper tanks looked kinda cool.

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Thanks Tom, I don't mind which option is correct, so that's very helpful.

thanks

Mike

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I edited Hans-Heiri's MiG-15 Walk Around when I was at Squadron-Signal, and don't remember any inaccuracies, and I attempted to fact-check everything that I was unsure of, given the limitations of Squad-Sig's own reference library and my own knowledge of the subject. Keep in mind that English is not Hans-Heiri's first language, and his original manuscript had some quaint terminology which was sometimes difficult to understand, but in the end I think we produced a pretty good book.

Hello Space Ranger,

It is good to know that his "work" was at least edited by someone. It is sad that no corrections were made! I have know HHS personally from mid 1980's and he was a regular visitor to Hungary, his "work" was mostly just collecting, asking for infos and photos. It was not his work!

He has asked from us for photos for his own private collection, as a gift, there was no mention that he will use them in his books. He knew exactly from whom the photos were, who the original photographers were, still no mention of them, no credit was given, it was always stated to be his own or from his "collection". He never payed for any of those photos used in Squadron Signal or any other publication. The two Walk Around books have many of my own photos for example, with absolutely no credit. I still have the original negatives so if there was a legal procedure from this . . .

HHS took with him a copy of our publication Aero Historia for which I made a scale drawing of the MiG-15 bis in the center fold. These drawings were used in Squadron Signal books with no credit to me in any form. Some deliberate mistakes (which did not affect the quality of the drawings) were added to the drawings to give them a "tag" a kind of copyright protection (to see where they end up). The mistakes were perfectly copied into the Squadron Signal drawings. :)

It is interesting that copyright laws a very strictly protected by US when it is about anything made in the US, but when they copy illegally from people outside the US then it is allowed and legal!

The two Walk Around books on the MiG-21 by HHS just add to the confusion on what is what, they can only be used as a collection of photos but even then be careful and dont read the subtitles as they will confuse you. Most are just simply a joke!

My favorite was on page 18 (Walk Around 5539, MiG-21 Fishbed Part 2) where he refers to the primitive Russian technology of making the nose cone: " The MiG-21MF's dielectric nose cone was made of laminated wood and covered with plastic foil." Not only he was not able to identify sub versions of the aircraft in the books, but he had no idea of any sort of the real aircraft and how and from what it was built. He has no knowledge of Russian language and makes interpretations ("translations") when trying to read the Russian markings / stencils. Which are just as serious as the laminated wooden nose cone! You can say a lot of things about HHS but the word "expert" will not come to my mind when you mention him!

​Sorry for the off topic but could not hold back having seen what has been written in the previous comments.

As to the fuel tanks on the MiG-15. Concerning the slipper tanks there were two versions and the Eduard kit has only the smaller one which was primarily used on the early MiG-15 aircraft. A later and bigger version with a pointed after part was used on some bis too. The kit gives two version of the drop tank, one is a metal construction while the other one was made mostly of Bakelite. I would either build the kit without the drop tank or the later type as they were used in most cases.

Best regards

Gabor

P.s. Piotr Butowski published a lot of books for different publishers on Russian subjects, the only difference is that he is a real expert on Russian aviation, he has spent his whole life on research, photography and writing of Russian aircraft, has seen real aircraft, knows about them, has visited the manufacturers / designers and speaks a perfect Russian. I will ask him why he never published for SquadronSignal.

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P.s. Piotr Butowski published a lot of books for different publishers on Russian subjects, the only difference is that he is a real expert on Russian aviation, he has spent his whole life on research, photography and writing of Russian aircraft, has seen real aircraft, knows about them, has visited the manufacturers / designers and speaks a perfect Russian. I will ask him why he never published for SquadronSignal.

Amen!

Though, I would like to add that the few books published by Piotr are in a class of their own (like Lotnictwo Wojskowe Rosiji). He's still 'in business', but nowadays foremost busy with things that bring money: namely, writing aviation-related books is bringing no income any more.

BTW, one of major reasons why he wasn't requested to publish more (in the West) was the 'availability' of specific other character with 'working practices' that are even more dubious (than those of HHS), and who is foremost renown for publishing supposed 'bibles' that are full of incredible mistakes and copyright violations.

Edited by Tom Cooper

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He's still 'in business', but nowadays foremost busy with things that bring money:

Hi Tom,

Yes, I know, we were together on several shows recently, last time in Moscow.

Concerning "incredible mistakes" I have to add that it was fascinating that way back (20-30 years ago) there was a book by Piotr published oversees on the MiG OKB. An excellent book but the editors thought that they know better and "corrected" a lot of things in book creating tons of mistakes, yes there were some myths in the West and the editors did not want to deviate from them and rather "corrected". :(

But you dont have to go back that far, few years ago a Czech publisher had a book to which I provided some additional material. The name of the ejection seat was "corrected" to the wrong name only because "it is more accepted by now in the West" even though they knew that it was wrong! :(((((

Best regards

Gabor

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K, since we're at ranting about editors, publishers and (specific) authors: hardly anybody I met so far is ready to believe what a mess 'even' Jane's editors are doing with any kind of authentic material that is 'not fitting' their ideas about how things look and function in specific parts of the world. So, no surprise if many other editors are doing exactly the same...

On the other hand: nowadays one must hope and pray that the publisher in question is editing the manuscript at all. Namely, most of book-publishers don't have editors, or if, they're not editing manuscripts.

Accountants are 'more important' - and they know everything better... :rolleyes:

What a surprise then, that the 'business' of specific characters - especially those who sign as authors but actually act as editors for a small army of miserably-paid 'ghost writers' that are primarily scrounging internet for info that's to their predilection - is 'flourishing': nothing makes accountants more happy but 'load of photos + text (no matter what BS) as gap-filler'.

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Hello Space Ranger,

It is good to know that his "work" was at least edited by someone. It is sad that no corrections were made! I have know HHS personally from mid 1980's and he was a regular visitor to Hungary, his "work" was mostly just collecting, asking for infos and photos. It was not his work!

He has asked from us for photos for his own private collection, as a gift, there was no mention that he will use them in his books. He knew exactly from whom the photos were, who the original photographers were, still no mention of them, no credit was given, it was always stated to be his own or from his "collection". He never payed for any of those photos used in Squadron Signal or any other publication. The two Walk Around books have many of my own photos for example, with absolutely no credit. I still have the original negatives so if there was a legal procedure from this . . .

HHS took with him a copy of our publication Aero Historia for which I made a scale drawing of the MiG-15 bis in the center fold. These drawings were used in Squadron Signal books with no credit to me in any form. Some deliberate mistakes (which did not affect the quality of the drawings) were added to the drawings to give them a "tag" a kind of copyright protection (to see where they end up). The mistakes were perfectly copied into the Squadron Signal drawings. :)

It is interesting that copyright laws a very strictly protected by US when it is about anything made in the US, but when they copy illegally from people outside the US then it is allowed and legal!

The two Walk Around books on the MiG-21 by HHS just add to the confusion on what is what, they can only be used as a collection of photos but even then be careful and dont read the subtitles as they will confuse you. Most are just simply a joke!

My favorite was on page 18 (Walk Around 5539, MiG-21 Fishbed Part 2) where he refers to the primitive Russian technology of making the nose cone: " The MiG-21MF's dielectric nose cone was made of laminated wood and covered with plastic foil." Not only he was not able to identify sub versions of the aircraft in the books, but he had no idea of any sort of the real aircraft and how and from what it was built. He has no knowledge of Russian language and makes interpretations ("translations") when trying to read the Russian markings / stencils. Which are just as serious as the laminated wooden nose cone! You can say a lot of things about HHS but the word "expert" will not come to my mind when you mention him!

​Sorry for the off topic but could not hold back having seen what has been written in the previous comments.

As to the fuel tanks on the MiG-15. Concerning the slipper tanks there were two versions and the Eduard kit has only the smaller one which was primarily used on the early MiG-15 aircraft. A later and bigger version with a pointed after part was used on some bis too. The kit gives two version of the drop tank, one is a metal construction while the other one was made mostly of Bakelite. I would either build the kit without the drop tank or the later type as they were used in most cases.

Best regards

Gabor

P.s. Piotr Butowski published a lot of books for different publishers on Russian subjects, the only difference is that he is a real expert on Russian aviation, he has spent his whole life on research, photography and writing of Russian aircraft, has seen real aircraft, knows about them, has visited the manufacturers / designers and speaks a perfect Russian. I will ask him why he never published for SquadronSignal.

ya-Gabor perfectly! :speak_cool: I have the same experience with HHS. I also gave him for personal needs photo Su-25 and other Czechoslovak aircraft.

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I think that some of the posters in this thread should start a "HHS and Yefim G" appreciation society within BM. :lol::lol::lol:

Would go well with the one that's currently on acig.org forum... :wicked:

(Another of Panoz's lame attempts in humor, please be understanding.... :fool: )

Edited by Panoz

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Hello Space Ranger,

It is good to know that his "work" was at least edited by someone. It is sad that no corrections were made! I have know HHS personally from mid 1980's and he was a regular visitor to Hungary, his "work" was mostly just collecting, asking for infos and photos. It was not his work!

He has asked from us for photos for his own private collection, as a gift, there was no mention that he will use them in his books. He knew exactly from whom the photos were, who the original photographers were, still no mention of them, no credit was given, it was always stated to be his own or from his "collection". He never payed for any of those photos used in Squadron Signal or any other publication. The two Walk Around books have many of my own photos for example, with absolutely no credit. I still have the original negatives so if there was a legal procedure from this . . .

HHS took with him a copy of our publication Aero Historia for which I made a scale drawing of the MiG-15 bis in the center fold. These drawings were used in Squadron Signal books with no credit to me in any form. Some deliberate mistakes (which did not affect the quality of the drawings) were added to the drawings to give them a "tag" a kind of copyright protection (to see where they end up). The mistakes were perfectly copied into the Squadron Signal drawings. :)

Hi, Gabor. I am truly sorry to learn of these issues. Had I known about them at the time, I would have taken measures to correct them before his books went to press. I was educated as a historian, and thoroughly drilled in the necessity to properly credit and cite sources. But Hans-Heiri was then Squadron's only author writing books on Soviet aircraft, and his previous books had sold well, so it was assumed that he was an "expert" on the subjects he wrote about. I have to confess that was my assumption as well.

Squadron/Signal did then, and still continues as far as I know, to rely entirely on the author of a manuscript to make sure it is correct and sources properly credited. As far as I know, I was the first editor to consistently attempt to fact check every manuscript. That caused me some problems with at least one superior, who empahisized speed of production instead of quality, and who felt that if there was a problem with inaccuracy, then it was the author's reputation that was at stake. They refused to understand that it was also the publisher's reputation at stake! And my reputation as an editor was also at stake.

One of the changes I wanted to make was to create a review panel for each series of books, to be composed of noted authors in the field of aviation, armor, and naval subjects to do "peer review" much like what is done in scientific publishing. Each review panel would have been sent a copy of every manuscript, and comments would have been forwarded to the author so that he could make the necessary corrections before the book went to press. All this would have been done anonymously so that feelings would not be hurt. Each member of the review panel would have received a free copy of the printed book as compensation. This would not have have increased production time, as that would have been bult into the publishing schedule. Unfortunately, Squadron/MMD was sold not long after I went to work there, and new ownership was not interested in talking to me until about a year later when I learned that a "senior editor" was to be hired. Unfortunately, I was not hired for that position and was fired by the senior editor after I had trained him. Squadron/Signal apparently still cuts costs at every opportunity, even to the point of firing their in-house photo editor and requiring authors to do all the photo editing themselves.

If you are interested in pursuing action for violation of copyright, please contact me by private email and I will try to put you in touch with a sympathetic ear at Squadron, a person whom I trust and with whom I have remained in contact.

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On the other hand: nowadays one must hope and pray that the publisher in question is editing the manuscript at all. Namely, most of book-publishers don't have editors, or if, they're not editing manuscripts.

Schiffer is one that does not.

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Hi Space Ranger,

Thanks for an interesting insight, it is fascinating. I am sorry the way it all turned out. We have a similar editing policy for our modeling publication where the rough version is given to a team of writers who make corrections before a final version is put together. It takes a bit more time but is worth doing.

At the time when the In Action book was published with a copy of my drawings I did write to Squadron Signal but did not expect to receive any reply and my assumption turned up to be true. After this I was not surprised when I seen my photos in the Walk Around book with out any credit. There was simply no point in going any further than that, but it shows clearly how business is done by HHS. Based on your explanation I dont think it is the fault of Squadron Signal but more of that Swiss person.

Thanks anyway.

Now lets get back to kit building and some writing.

Best regards

Gabor

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