1:72 Consolidated PB4Y-1 Liberator

[woody37]

Stunning Bill, that's going to weigh a ton !

[trickyrich]

Bill,

it's just crazy lovely as usual, you certainly have the patients and talent to make something amazing from something so..........old!

Just looking at the amount of weight required and I wondered if you (or anyone) had thought of doing a custom casting of the lead weight. I’ve had the same issue of trying to find enough space for lead, a Dragon Ta-154 comes to mind!

So I had been thinking, make a quick plasticine master, cast it in plaster of paris, then melt lead and pour. This should allow you to remove all those wasted air pockets and keep the weight forward and hidden better.

Maybe there’s a new “aftermarket” business there?

Though I just usually bash my lead sinkers to death...I mean shape!

Anyway loving the build, it’s awesome!

[Navy Bird]

On 11/25/2013 at 09:11, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I thought that at first, but it looks more like the props aren't centred on their shafts.

 

I had a good look. The props seem centered on the shafts. The blades are a mixed bag, each prop has two blades that are 21mm long and one that's 22mm long. Plus, they are not 120 degrees apart, one being about 5 degrees out. Since all four props are the same, I'm guessing they were moulded that way.

 

The bigger problem is that the hole in the engine is NOT centered in the front engine case - they're between 0.5mm and 1.0mm off-center. Looks like aftermarket props are in my future, along with some fix for mounting them. Thanks for the alert!

 

On 11/25/2013 at 13:44, JOCKNEY said:

Hi Bill

Thanks for taking the photos of all the weights, if you had just told us I don't think anyone would have appreciated just how much you were talking about, or the ingenious places for hiding them.

The crosshairs on the guns is a blatant bit of showing off how good your eyesight is while some of us realise that 1/48 scale offers the only hope to see what we're doing !

Can i ask did all the crew have to huddle in the cockpit during taxiing takeoff and landings to prevent grinding away at the rear turret ?

Cheers Pat

 

Thanks, Pat! To be honest, I don't know where the waist, belly, and tail gunners sat during take-off and landing but I'd guess it wasn't on the flight deck or in the radio room. Not so easy navigating through the bomb bay - especially when it was full of bombs!

 

And what's this about cross-hairs on the guns? What cross-hairs? Who put them there? Has Nobby been playing with my models again!!!

 

On 11/25/2013 at 14:20, John_W said:

Just got a Catalina to sit on it's nosewheel. I feel your pain at the amount of weight.

Is the u/c going to be strong enough?

On 11/25/2013 at 14:45, SleeperService said:

I'd be wondering about the nose gear in particular. If you ever reduce the model to spares you'll get a decent steak dinner for the scrap value.

Your work so far is amazing, I'm very impressed and rather jealous. I think the end result is going to be incredible.

 

Thanks, guys! Wow, a Catalina! I bet that took more weight than this!

 

I tested the weight with the landing gear installed, including my home-made nose gear. It held fine during the test. Long term - who knows? Like I said before, though, the nose gear is stronger than it looks. Lots of triangulation!

 

Steak dinner for sure - the fishing weights cost that much in total to begin with!

 

On 11/25/2013 at 16:51, woody37 said:

Stunning Bill, that's going to weigh a ton !

 

Well, a bit less than a ton I would think. The weight totals about 83 grams, mostly because the weight is so close to the fulcrum (main landing gear). If I could have put the weight all in the nose, it would have been half that.

 

On 11/25/2013 at 18:41, trickyrich said:

Bill,

it's just crazy lovely as usual, you certainly have the patients and talent to make something amazing from something so..........old!

Just looking at the amount of weight required and I wondered if you (or anyone) had thought of doing a custom casting of the lead weight. I’ve had the same issue of trying to find enough space for lead, a Dragon Ta-154 comes to mind!

So I had been thinking, make a quick plasticine master, cast it in plaster of paris, then melt lead and pour. This should allow you to remove all those wasted air pockets and keep the weight forward and hidden better.

Maybe there’s a new “aftermarket” business there?

Though I just usually bash my lead sinkers to death...I mean shape!

Anyway loving the build, it’s awesome!

 

Thanks! I bashed the big chunk of lead around, but it was harder to form than I thought it would be! Your idea of melting it down would be nice if I had access to a crucible or blast furnace, but my wife uses those for her make-up. My sinkers would be even harder to bash - they're steel!

 

Aren't there some companies that do just what you say? I think I've seen formed weights for P-39s and other notorious tail-sitters. Plus, there are the white metal landing gear folks, although I don't suspect that adds a lot of weight. Someone earlier in this thread posted a link to an all metal cockpit for the B-24, instead of a resin one. I might have tried that if I knew about it earlier. It would have gotten rid of a couple of those sinkers!

 

Now, don't tell anyone, but here is what I used to do. My grandfather (the one who flew a Spad in WWI) was a horologist, or clockmaker after the war. He would use liquid mercury in some of the movements - for what, I have no idea. When he passed away, I purloined a big bottle, nearly a pint, of mercury from his workshop. I kept it until about 5-7 years ago. Anyway, I would fill the front tyre with mercury, assuming of course that the tyre was a two piece affair. I would also make small compartments hidden in the nose of the aircraft to put the mercury into. Radomes were easy, pour in a little mercury, add some superglue on top, let it cure and it held the mercury in with no leaks! I finally turned the mercury over to the local hazardous waste disposal unit after they gave me some line about cumulative toxin, carcinogenic, harmful to all living things, etc. What a bunch of wussies.

 

Now, if only I had the talent to make something amazing from something old...like me!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[trickyrich]

Thanks! I bashed the big chunk of lead around, but it was harder to form than I thought it would be! Your idea of melting it down would be nice if I had access to a crucible or blast furnace, but my wife uses those for her make-up. My sinkers would be even harder to bash - they're steel!

at least you didn't say her cooking!!!

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Kind of surprised aftermarket producers don't do white-metal replacement engines with huge casting blocks to help with jobs like this?

Edited November 26, 2013 by Sgt.Squarehead

[David H]

i know this is probably too late in coming, but considering the B-24 had a pretty neutral CG (perhaps even slightly tail heavy) when unloaded with bombs, etc. i was thinking another way to work around the nose weight problem would be to extend the nose wheel oleo so the plane tips back and rests on the tail skid (i.e. it makes contact on 4 points, not 3). Not sure if the nose strut really had that much extension, but just a thought. I'm not crazy about the idea of putting weight in engine nacelles because the lever arm is very short, and it places greater strain on the wing/ fuselage joint unless you've beefed it up with some kind of monster spar. It just makes the plane a lot heavier the way i see things, without much benefit.

david

[John_W]

Mentioned previously.

It was common practice to put a .50 cal ammo box under the skid to stop the aircraft tipping.

Edited November 28, 2013 by John_W

[Navy Bird]

Hi mates,

 

Thanks for the comments. I've never seen a photo of a B-24 resting on four points. Plenty of photos like John W posted, though, oftentimes with a regular old jack stand under the tail bumper.

 

I'm not concerned about the weight. I've tested the front gear, and it supports more than what I have in the model. Does anyone remember the photo of the actual B-24 nose gear that I posted? Small diameter tubing, made strong by triangulation - just like what I built. The same physics that worked on the real thing will work on this model.

 

The wings won't be a problem either. I'm well aware of the short lever arm (I believe I even posted the formula for levers earlier in this thread). The attachment points for the wings are very tight and quite deep. The tabs on the wings don't just go through a hole in the fuselage, they go into a pocket in the fuselage. This pocket fully encloses the tabs, and have a significant wall thickness. The downward force generated by the extra weight presses the top of the tab against the top of the pocket.

 

The top surface of each wing tab measures 30 x 7mm, or 210 mm². The wing will be secured with epoxy and it will hold.

The main gear could be a concern, but it is plenty strong enough.

 

The extra weight in the nacelles does indeed have a benefit - it keeps the model on its wheels. You may recall that I arrived at this amount of weight through trial and error and a lot of masking tape. The masking tape was used to hold the entire model together while I tested different amounts of weight. I know for a fact that it will sit on its wheels when it's finished, because I've tried it. The weight in the nacelles, while not as effective as weight in the nose, was required. Because the nose of the B-24D is all greenhouse, there's just no place to put extra weight up there. A cast lead cockpit (instead of resin) would be nice, but none was available to me.

 

We also have to remember that this is a static display model. It won't be subject to any additional stress or force beyond what we see here, unless I drop it, or we have a localised disruption in the space-time continuum.

 

Another data point - Hasegawa recommends 90g be installed below and behind the cockpit in their B-24D instructions. I believe them, based on my trial and error experiments. There are many photos of these kits built up with the plane sitting on its wheels.

 

Next up: Closing the fuselage and on to the wings!

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. I can guarantee that the model won't survive being dropped! That I'm quite sure of.

 

PPS. EDIT 2018 - The model is still sitting properly on its three wheels, and the landing gear legs are fine. No bending, flexing, or distortion is noticed. Revell made some beaucoup hard plastic back then!

[trickyrich]

I remember the undercarriage was retractable on the one my father had, well my father left it like that! I spent many an hour playing with it, either wheels up or down and surprisingly enough it never broke! Also remember the lower turret use to retract as well, again it survived my playtimes with it.

Actually does it have retractable or moving main flaps? I might be thinking of another model.

Gosh I'm almost tempted to buy one just too remember those times!

[Navy Bird]

Hi Rich,

 

Yup, this kit has all those things out of the box, including moveable flaps, elevators and ailerons. I won't be preserving those features here, though, everything will be glued in place.

 

I remember my brother building one of these (as a B-24D) sometime back in the 60s, probably right after it came out. I'm pretty sure he blew it up with firecrackers. I seem to recall it had a huge sharkmouth on it, but he may have hand painted that on. Anyway, those were the days as Mary Hopkin said.

 

What continues to amaze me is how accurate this kit is. I spent some time yesterday fitting the PE wheel wells into the wings. The PE is designed for the Hasegawa kit, and it fits into the Revell kit quite well. And, of course, the CMK resin flight deck needed a bit of trimming but otherwise worked well too.

 

I've got all of the rivets off and the rest of the windows in, and I'm looking forward to getting the fuselage assembled so I can get a coat of primer on. I think she's going to look rather nice!

 

I had a close look at the "Gallopin Ghost" nose art decal, and it is just a bit out of register. Things like that bug me to no end once I know about it (I shouldn't have looked so close!) so I'm having an internal debate about switching to a different scheme. The markings for "Subduer" look fine, maybe that will be the one.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[trickyrich]

arrr the rivets!!!!

They were essential for those really high G turns on bombing runs............helped stop the beasty from slipping out of my fingers!

[Sgt.Squarehead]

'Subduer' is one of my favourite PB4Ys.....Cool name!

Edited December 1, 2013 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Navy Bird]

While we're waiting for the paint to dry...

 

I removed the flange from the bottom of the top turret and painted it Interior Green.

 

 

I did this so I could mount the flange inside the fuselage, and allow me to add the top turret assembly later on. It also gives me access just in case more weight is needed, but I can't imagine that happening!

 

 

I may replace the kit clear part for a vacuform piece that I have, although the vacuform piece is utterly devoid of any detail. It's completely smooth inside and out. I know the plexiglass used for the top turret had no visible, painted frames but it did have internal ribs to provide strength. The clear plastic part has frames moulded onto it, and they at least give the impression of internal framework. We'll see, maybe there is another way to do it.

 

I finished up the main gear wheel wells and gave them a coat of primer. They're really going to add a lot to the model, which had no detail here at all.

 

 

I also added some brake lines to the main gear, along with PE brackets and scissors link. This is going to be tricky since the gear must be glued into the wing before the wing halves go together. Not my favorite way of doing things, as it takes away the ability to adjust the gear leg into the right position. Nothing worse than gear legs that aren't square and don't line up!

 

 

The inside of the flap area was primed - although the detail here isn't accurate, I think it's fine and with the flaps open a wee bit, it will make for a more interesting model.

 

 

Next, I painted the main wheel wells Interior Green. This will surely provoke controversy, but there is some logic behind my decision.

 

First, I consulted the USN top wizard, Tailspin Tommy. He in turn consulted a colleague known to be an SME for the PB4Y. His advice for this model was to use Interior Green for the wheel wells. I had thought about painting them white, as I know that most B-24s that were painted had the main gear and wheel wells done in the same colour as the underside of the plane. Those that were natural metal remained unpainted.

 

I checked to see if I have any photos that show this area - as it turns out, I do and they're photos of the Gallopin' Ghost herself. Photos like this one, of the plane after her take-off accident (I'm not liking that gash made by the prop just below the flight deck!):

 

 

Doesn't tell me much about the wheel well. But this one, taken at the same time, perhaps does (an even better view of the gash - luckily the pilot had only a knee injury):

 

 

The rear wall of the wheel well is just about at the same location as the front of the wheel fairing mounted just aft of the wheel opening in the bottom of the wing. As such, I would have expected them both to be approximately the same shade of grey in this photo; the illumination angle is the same, etc. The fact that that the rear wall of the wheel well looks darker than the wheel fairing MAY be an indication that it was not painted white. Could be Interior Green, could be Zinc Chromate Yellow (although that was usually painted over for an external application). The wheel fairing is surely white. The truth is out there, as they say...

 

So I painted them Interior Green, which will break up the monotone of all that white, and make it look more interesting.

 

 

I have since learned that an "unimpeachable" source (i.e. Hobby Master, a die cast manufacturer who happens to sell a model of the Gallopin' Ghost) has depicted the wheel wells in Interior Green. So there! (They got the rest of the paint job wrong, though, as they show it in Atlantic camouflage, not the USN tri-colour scheme).

 

Next, the UNIMAGINABLE happened! All of that lovely detail that I've spent way too much time adding to the interior of the fuselage has VANISHED! It's gone forever, so I hope you copied the photos from this build thread so you can still see it when the urge hits.

 

 

Whew! I didn't think I was ever going to get this baby closed up. But I've done it, there's no going back now. There is a strong possibility that this won't be done in time for December 15...but I shall persevere and continue to march. Onward!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[woody37]

This looks a tad modified ! Can you shed any more light on it ?

[woody37]

Bill, the detail might be hidden but we know its there and have been inspired by what you've achieved

If there's no framing on the vac canopy, solar trim could be the answer.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

This looks a tad modified ! Can you shed any more light on it ?

It's the XB-41 Gunship.....One and only prototype of the Liberator heavy fighter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XB-41

[Navy Bird]

On 12/1/2013 at 17:11, Sgt.Squarehead said:

It's the XB-41 Gunship.....One and only prototype of the Liberator heavy fighter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XB-41

 

Didn't they test the PB4Y-2 style waist "bubble" windows on this guy? I think I read that in the Detail & Scale book. Maybe I should just click on your link...

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Sgt.Squarehead]

TBH I ony discovered it a bit earlier while searching for interesting schemes for PB4Y-1s.....I've got the Academy Atlantic Scheme kit in the stash and while it's beautiful in white & grey, it is a bit boring without any nose art.

[crobinsonh]

Bill, amazing what you are doing with this old model. Fantastic work.

[Navy Bird]

Two quick photos tonight...first, I realized that the "working" flaps feature of this old kit required two slots in the bottom of the wing that aren't there on the real thing. I used small pieces of sheet styrene to fill them in. Once the glue dries completely, I'll blend these in as part of the final fine sanding that is necessary because of the rivet removal. There is also some rescribing to do in order to recover some panel lines that were so emotionally attached to the rivets that they chose to leave with them.

 

 

Then I finally got around to removing the resin main wheels from their pour stub. These wheels are made by True Details, and to be honest I don't know what they were thinking. This "weighted" tyre thing has gotten a little out of hand. The actual aircraft tyres were very high pressure, and although it is true they were "flat" on the bottom, the sidewalls did not bulge out like some cheap hooker on 42nd Street. These tyres from True Details are not only "flat" - they've de-mounted themselves from the rim. All I could do is sand away the hooker, er, I mean, the bulge (on the left) until I got something that is passable (on the right):

 

 

I'll live with them, but they could be a lot better. Even so, they are miles ahead of what was provided in the kit.

 

If I can cancel all this holiday and family stuff, work on the model every evening after work, and lock myself in my studio for the entire weekend, there is a remote chance I could finish this on time. Now if Mish would give us all an extra week...

 

Cheers,

Bill

[hacker]

If I can cancel all this holiday and family stuff, work on the model every evening after work, and lock myself in my studio for the entire weekend, there is a remote chance I could finish this on time. Now if Mish would give us all an extra week...

Cheers,

Bill

Good luck with that. Been trying to that for a while even just on weekends and ain't much success with it.

[Navy Bird]

Time to get serious on this build...running quickly out of time. So, sooner or later the bird needs to set on its legs. The front gear is already installed, and the main gear will need to be finished now prior to assembly of the wings. I don't like doing it that way, to be honest, but I don't really see any other way around it. I sprayed the main gear legs with Alclad, applied a light wash after previously tarting them up with some PE. The real gear was painted with an aluminum paint, so I'll end up applying a flat varnish over these along with the rest of the airframe. There is an actuating strut (not included with the kit) which will need to be added later.

 

 

The resin prop replacements arrived from Aires, and they look quite nice:

 

 

Wondering why there are four blades? Yeah, me too! Turns out one is an extra, in case you screw up one of the other three. The hub is nicely detailed (much better than either the Revell or Academy kits). Something besides the number of blades just doesn't look right, though. The section of the blade that attaches to the hub seems quite long, and even accounting for the 1.5mm that goes into the hub, won't match photos of the real props. I think they need to be shortened, but by how much?

 

I found several references on-line (yeah, I know, but one of them was an email from Hamilton Sunstrand) that stated the diameter of the B-24 prop was 139 inches. This equates to just a tad over 49mm in 1:72 scale. To get this in the finished prop, here's how much has to be cut off:

 

 

No problem, Me Modeller, Got Razor (Need Styptic Pencil). So I cut them all this length (I measured twice!). Then I realized that the fancy alignment tool supplied with the props will no longer work, as the blades are too short. I love this hobby. Well, since it's of no use any more, let's just hack away at it and see if we can make it work! All that was required was some resin removal that allowed the blade to sit at the right angle while it was properly inserted into the hub. Here are the resulting props, which look very much like the B-24 photos:

 

 

For comparison, here is the Revell prop, which scales out about 8 inches undersize in diameter. Now that I see this picture, I'm really glad I bought the replacement resin props. But what was Aires thinking making the blades too long?

 

 

I then turned my attention to the fuselage seams, which are not Tamiya quality. They're very uneven, and they will take a lot of work. You may recall that the seams were superglued together in anticipation of rescribing. Out came the scriber, and after finishing that (my favorite task, he said with much sarcasm) it was time for some putty. Make that a lot of putty.

 

 

I was careful not to get any putty in the newly scribed panel lines and I also filled in quite a few sink marks. In the photo above, I've already finished cleaning and filling the seams on the bottom.

 

Next, it was time to assemble the wings. The landing gear struts went in first, followed by the beautiful PE landing gear bays from Eduard.

 

 

 

While the putty dries, I'm off to do the fine sanding on the wings. I think there's a good chance I'll have the fuselage assembled (except for the glazing) this weekend. Back to work...

 

Cheers,

Bill

[bobster]

I hope you get the build finished Bill, it is looking great.

[woody37]

Bill, love the work you've done on the brake lines, have you got any tips for doing this ? I usually end up with the lines on the floor and my fingers stuck to the gear legs !

It's coming together now, the gear bays look superb

[Navy Bird]

Thanks, mates!

 

When I add brake lines, which are incredibly delicate and prone to bending uncontrollably, I start out by cursing.    This gets me in the proper "anticipative" state of mind. I make sure I don't actually start putting them on until my medication kicks in - this counteracts the cursing so I'm on an even keel, my hands are steady, and the cross-hairs have been removed from my eyeballs. Now when the inevitable cursing starts, it's more of a "who cares" curse.

 

First, I hold the landing gear in a "third hand" or vise of some kind. I need both of my hands for this. The trick for me is to start by gluing just the top of the brake line. Since this is superglue it sets fast. Once it's dry, I'll move down the brake line, gluing maybe 2-3mm at a time. By having part of the brake line firmly anchored during the process, it removes the possibility of accidentally rolling the PE up into a small ball, thereby inciting more cursing, or gluing it in the wrong place, etc.

 

I've ruined more than my share of PE brake lines (see below)!

 

Small setback last night around midnight. I dropped the port wing.     

 

And even though I know that heavier objects fall at the same acceleration as lighter objects, the wing made a Mach 1 dive. During that dive of several milliseconds, I cringed, as I recalled the massive amount of weight inside the nacelles. I believe there may have even been an expletive uttered in anticipation of a loud smack.

 

The damage was not as bad as I expected. The wing stayed intact, and did not split open. The weights were not dislodged. However, the PE gear bay broke free, and the landing gear snapped in half, right at the top of the oleo. I think the wing landed on the gear. Also, the aforementioned brake line was torn in half.

 

By 2 AM, the gear well was back where it should be. I put a small metal rod in the landing gear and reattached. And the wing was epoxied to the fuselage, which is what I was getting ready to do when I dropped it. All that's left is the brake line PE repair, made difficult because the piece that came off is bent rather badly. Not quite curled up into a ball, but...well, we'll give it a try today. I should have done the brake line before adding the wing to the fuselage, but I wasn't in the mood!

 

By the way, all the fuselage seams are cleaned up, re-scribing has been finished on the wings, and fine sanding has been finished. I just need to assemble all the pieces, and she'll be ready for primer and paint.

 

No wait, there is all that glazing to prepare first! Arghh.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. Oh, and another thing - those flat resin tyres from True Details? You're going to love this, the hole that accepts the axle from the landing gear is not perpendicular to the tyre. It's a good fit to the Revell landing gear, it slides right on. However, I noticed the tyre wasn't aligned to the gear leg. So I rotated the tyre 180 degrees, and it was out of alignment the other way! I'm going to have to drill it out oversize, and make a simple alignment jig to get the tyre in the right position while the glue sets. Ah, the joys of modelling that they didn't tell you about in the book...