Hurricane 1, 87 Sqn. Lille-Seclin, France, 1940

[Max Headroom]

Idly searching through the IWM photo archive, I came across this photo

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259684

I knew Hurricanes in the BEF had 'French' style rudder stripes, but I've never seen the pre war style squadron badges applied at the same time.

Any comments? Maybe this would make an interesting alternative with the new Airfix early mk.1?

Trevor

[Black Knight]

In some of my books I have photos of 85 squadron's Hurricanes with their hexagon on the fin, not just in France but also Britain, early 1940. The hexagon was rotated according to the flight. I think flat to bottom was A flight, point to bottom was B flight.

[Troy Smith]

On 19/09/2013 at 23:57, Max Headroom said:

Idly searching through the IWM photo archive, I came across this photo

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259684

I knew Hurricanes in the BEF had 'French' style rudder stripes, but I've never seen the pre war style squadron badges applied at the same time.

Any comments? Maybe this would make an interesting alternative with the new Airfix early mk.1?

Trevor

very interesting.

if you right click you can ge to the standard pic, if change it to 'large' in the address bar you get this

very very neat. Never seen this before.

Looks like it might have a very narrow yellow ring added to the fuselage roundel, making it mid may 1940.

But maybe not compared top photo below, as the yellow was very clean, and the 87 Sq planes later with converted 35 " A types added another 7" ring, making a 49" C1 see pics of the famous LK-A for what i mean here,

more info on this plane scroll down a bit http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234945878-night-hurricane/

but to show what I mean ]

The rudder stripes look very fresh, and I've never seen an 87 Sq hurricane with them before, I think the only pics I have seen are of no 1 squadron with rudder stripes, and that was late 1939 if the captions are correct.

the new fabric wing mkI from Airfix is possible, but without a serial it's hard to tell, as the N**** serial planes also have early features but metal wings.

there is a thread here on 85 Sq hurricnes, with a pic of Sammy Allard getting out of N2319 VY-P.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234907653-hurricane-i-vy-cg-of-85-sqn-lille-seclin-around-apr-1940/?hl=%2Blille+%2Bseclin+%2Bhurricaneforgot

This also has the hexagon on the fin in one shot. the plane has fabric wings, note different tone of outer wing panels and fuselage.

plenty of other Battle of France Hurricane info and details in linked thread.

HTH

T

[Selwyn]

very interesting.

if you right click you can ge to the standard pic, if change it to 'large' in the address bar you get this

very very neat. Never seen this before.

Looks like it might have a very narrow yellow ring added to the fuselage roundel, making it mid may 1940.

But maybe not compared top photo below, as the yellow was very clean, and the 87 Sq planes later with converted 35 " A types added another 7" ring, making a 49" C1 see pics of the famous LK-A for what i mean here,

more info on this plane scroll down a bit http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234945878-night-hurricane/

but to show what I mean ]

The rudder stripes look very fresh, and I've never seen an 87 Sq hurricane with them before, I think the only pics I have seen are of no 1 squadron with rudder stripes, and that was late 1939 if the captions are correct.

the new fabric wing mkI from Airfix is possible, but without a serial it's hard to tell, as the N**** serial planes also have early features but metal wings.

there is a thread here on 85 Sq hurricnes, with a pic of Sammy Allard getting out of N2319 VY-P.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234907653-hurricane-i-vy-cg-of-85-sqn-lille-seclin-around-apr-1940/?hl=%2Blille+%2Bseclin+%2Bhurricaneforgot

This also has the hexagon on the fin in one shot. the plane has fabric wings, note different tone of outer wing panels and fuselage.

plenty of other Battle of France Hurricane info and details in linked thread.

HTH

T

That is a RAF fighter squadron badge "background."

IIRC RAF fighter squadron badges were this shape (Dagger?) Army co-op aircraft had a six pointed star design. Not sure about bombers.

Badges of this type were more often seen on silver biplanes.

http://www.sonsofdamien.co.uk/hawker%201.htm

Selwyn

Edited September 20, 2013 by Selwyn

[Edgar]

IIRC RAF fighter squadron badges were this shape (Dagger?)

Spearhead.

Edgar

[occa]

Sorry off topic I know, also don't shoot me for making this obsercation.

This AC to me appears to wear a three color uppersided camo ...

[Test Graham]

Bombers had a grenade - old style. The background shapes should have disappeared after Munich, I don't recall seeing any other in use this late. It does not have the squadron badge, so isn't actually giving any information away to the enemy... or wouldn't be if the other units had adopted this as well.

The 85 Sq Hurricane is showing the difference between faded colours on fabric and on metal.

[Max Headroom]

All interesting stuff!

I searched for more info on the IWM website by typing in "87 Squadron Hurricane France" at lunchtime and it threw up more pix. Unfortunately I can't make out much detail on my iPhone, other than to note some of the Hurricanes had the early two blade prop.

I'll do some more surfing soon on my laptop to see what else I can find!

Trevor

[Test Graham]

Only 1 and 87 Sqs of the Advanced Air Striking Force had the tail stripes, not the other fighter units in the BEF. There is a considerable amount about 87 Sq in Peter Cornwell's The Battle of France Then and Now, and of course 1 Sq in Paul Richey's classic Fighter Pilot.

Edit: Tony below is right: the AASF did have 1 Sq and 73 Sq, I was seeing the photos above of 87 Sq without fully engaging brain and realising this was something new. That's what comes of concentrating on the spearhead, is my excuse. Sorry guys. For 87 above read 73.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Graham Boak

[tonyot]

Only 1 and 87 Sqs of the Advanced Air Striking Force had the tail stripes, not the other fighter units in the BEF. There is a considerable amount about 87 Sq in Peter Cornwell's The Battle of France Then and Now, and of course 1 Sq in Paul Richey's classic Fighter Pilot.

Hiya Graham,

I may be mistaken so please correct me if I`m wrong but wasn`t 87 Sqn part of the Air Component while 1 Sqn (code JX) and 73 Sqn (code TP) formed the fighter wing (67 Wing) of the AASF? I know that 501 Sqn later reinforced the AASF later on but I thought that 87 Sqn remained with the Air Component?

I agree that I`ve only ever seen rudder stripes on Hurri`s of the AASF, which makes me wonder if the Air Component applied them for a while too?

All the best

Tony O

[Selwyn]

Spearhead.

Edgar

Edgar, "Thats right!" Pointy bit!

Selwyn

[Edgar]

I agree that I`ve only ever seen rudder stripes on Hurri`s of the AASF, which makes me wonder if the Air Component applied them for a while too?

The initial order was for all rudders to be painted, in colours reversed from the French method, but the Squadrons complained that this was playing havoc with the rudders' balance, so the Air Ministry relented, and amended the order to cover the fins instead. Unfortunately they didn't think to specify the size of the stripes, which is why some over-enthusiastic souls covered the whole surface; eventually the Ministry caught up, issued size guidelines, and everything calmed down (a little.)

Edgar

[mhaselden]

Per Post #3 (trying to save repeating that large post again), it looks like the red centre to the fuselage roundel is darker in tone than the outer blue circle. Does this mean that the rudder stripes are (fore to aft) the traditional red-white-blue? I'd always understood (not to be mistaken for fact) that the colours were reversed to follow the French model (ie blue-white-red).

Then again, I could just be mistaken about the tonal values for the fuselage roundel.

Cheers,
Mark

[Troy Smith]

Sorry off topic I know, also don't shoot me for making this obsercation.

This AC to me appears to wear a three color uppersided camo ...

I mentioned this in my posting, directly above the photo. Also discussed in the link I posted. Thanks for Graham clarifying the point.

Occa, i'm not having a go, but I try to add relevant information in my posting and not talk utter b********

I'm not sure if the fabric areas actully fade more, or if being less smooth than the metal, just reflect light in different way. But is does show up clearly in these shots, but this plane is evidently quite old, and has been in France for about 6 months by this point. Not also the bare metal scuffing behind the gun access doors.

All interesting stuff!

I searched for more info on the IWM website by typing in "87 Squadron Hurricane France" at lunchtime and it threw up more pix. Unfortunately I can't make out much detail on my iPhone, other than to note some of the Hurricanes had the early two blade prop.

I'll do some more surfing soon on my laptop to see what else I can find!

Trevor

Hi Trevor

more links are good, but the IWM pics are not always very organised for searching, so even if a pic is 87 sq, it may not be listed as such!

thanks for the original picture link, as I'd not seen it before.

cheers

T