Sidney Cotton's Spitfire's

[fids]

Just read a book about the Bruneval raid in 1942 and was introduced to Mr Cotton and his photo recce exploits for the first time, great story.

Well, I normally make modern aircraft and helicopters but I think I should bite the bullet and make (hopefully) one his first Spitfire's (my first since 19..) preferably in 1:48

I'm pretty sure they were Mk1's, anybody have any info to help me start, decals and colour scheme's mainly.

cheer's

[NPL]

You can start with the Wikipedia article. It is not so bad after all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidcot_suit

But you are right about the Mk.Is, in different variations.

NPL

[malt1977]

This should help you:

PR Mk IA

The first ones were ex combat Mk Is with the armament removed but the bullet proof windscreen remained. The colour was called camotint, a pale grey-green. Its hard to make out on my model, but you can just see the blisters in the canopy that were added for the PR role. All my info came from the publication ''On Target PROFILES 8''.

Good luck.

Marc

[Fernando]

Hi, Fids,

I have been researching this subject for long. You can get the On Target booklet recommended by Malt, and its associated decal sheet, Model Alliance MA72131 (48131) with a wide and representative selection. You can also check the Pavla conversion set and decals, or the various Airwaves sets available.

For a more in-depht coverage, you can get the Ventura Publications "Classic Wardbirds n°10 - Merlin PR Spitfires". (you can get both over the internet). "The Spitfire Story", by Alfred Price, also has some useful data and pictures.

The two first recce Spits were N3069 and N3071, Mk.Is which were hand-modified to have two cameras in the wings. They were called "PR.IA", and painted in a colour called "Camotint", which is no other than Sky.Then came the "PR.IB", more Mk.Is which received a 29 gal tank behind the seat, they introduced the armourless windscreen. These machines were painted in what became "PR Blue", and operated in the Battle of France as 212 Sqn. Shortly afterwards, Cotton was fired, well, "honourably discharged".

The best starting point to model these is the Tamiya Spitfire Mk.I, or, if you are picky about the shape inaccuracies in that and less so about lack of detail and general chunkiness, the Airfix Mk.I/Ia/Va. You could also use the Hasegawa Mk.Vb, but you would have to deal with the cannon bulges.

If there is anything specific you want to ask, please do so.

FErnando

Edited September 14, 2013 by Fernando

[fids]

cheers all, very much appreciated.

especially the pic :-)

[Jim Kiker]

Hi Fids,

I have also built the PR I and used the Tamiya kit in 1/48 scale as a basis. I'd be happy to share the informatin I gathered and how I built my model if you are interested. Shoot me a private message here and I will pass on what I learned.

Cheers, Jim

Edited September 15, 2013 by Jim Kiker

[mackem01]

Interesting story this - why was Mr.Cotton discharged?

[malt1977]

Here you go...

By mid-1940 however, Cotton had clashed with senior officials in the Air Ministry over his participation in the evacuation of British agents from France under the cover name of "Special Survey Flights." After his return from France couriering Marcel Boussac, the head of the Christian Dior garment and perfume empire, for a fee, he was removed from his post and banned from any involvement with air operations.^[5] Following several efforts to be reinstated, even involving Churchill himself, Cotton resigned his commission; he was nevertheless awarded an OBE.^[6] For the remainder of the war, Cotton acted as an unofficial consultant to the Admiralty. Under the new designation, 1 Photographic Reconnaissance Unit (PRU), based at RAF Hendon, 1 PRU went on to a distinguished wartime record, eventually operating five squadrons out of a number of bases. Succeeding commanding officers would emulate the spirit and innovative techniques pioneered by Cotton.

[ben_m]

If you want to model N3071, the first operational PR Sptifire, as PR Type A at the time of its first sortie, then I can help out with some photos. Basically the markings are Type 'A' roundels on underside of wings, I believe none on upper surfaces, and Type 'B' on fuselage. As already mentioned, you'll need to get a canopy with teardrop blisters, but keep the armoured windscreen.

Both the Type A's were modified to B standard (8" lenses instead of 5", and fuel tank behind pilot), and early Type Bs were also painted in camotint. But these didn't have the armoured windscreen, and had type A roundels in all six positions.

I'll be back with photos of N3071 soon.

[ben_m]

I believe the first three of these photos were taken within a few minutes of each other, and the fourth may have been a few weeks later in a hangar at the same airfield.

This is the most widely published photo, but it is often printed with the underside of the wing shadow completely blocked up in black. In this print (from The Sptifire Story, Alfred Price), you can see the darker area of an underside roundel. Note also part of a small roundel on the fuselage visible over the top of the wing. Note also the starboard u/c leg, cover and hub in white (brighter than Sky). Port wheel hub cannot be made out against the tyre, as it is painted black.

I believe the people are: foreground in coat and gloves: P/O White; in cockpit: Sgt. 'Timber' Woods, crouching is possibly LAC Cecil Bristow.

Another well-known photo, but it doesn't help at all with the markings.

But the next one contains lots of details:

Blue arrow: Type A roundel

Yellow arrow: camera opening

red arrow: round part of well painted sky

green arrow: part of well where leg rests is very dark- black?

Purple arrows: port u/c leg/cover/hub in black.

turquoise arrow: starboard hub in white.

Unfortunately, the man in the foreground is obscuring where the serial might be. If it was carried, I would expect it to be small, and maybe in a darker Sky-like colour, or maybe grey. See the Spitfire model in the middle of this very long page that was said to be commissioned by Shorty himself.

Up until about a year ago, I assumed from the above photos, and others of Camoutint/Sky PR Type Bs, that the roundels were in all positions, and likely to be type A. Then I found a very interesting book about Cotton, that is unfortunately hard to get hold of outside Australia, called Sidney Cotton: Last Plane Out of Berlin by Jeffery Watson. It solves many of the mysteries left after reading 'Aviator Extraordinary', but it is a much more realistic view of the man, and in some ways ruined the impression I had of Cotton other accounts of the events, such as Babbington-Smith's view of his deeds in 'Evidence in Camera'. Cotton had many flaws. Anyway, I digress. The photo that changed everything is this one (that I've not see published anywhere else):

Blue arrow: Type B fuselage roundel!

yellow arrow: interesting shadow- maybe a round opening in the radio hatch. I can only guess that even at this point they had already experimented with oblique cameras in that location. Why else would there be a round opening in a panel that was already hinged for easy access?

Purple and turquoise arrows: same hubs as before.

But just as important as the fuselage roundel, even with Cotton stood in that position, there is no room for even a reduced size (within reason) roundel to fit on the upper surfaces.

[Fernando]

Hi, ben_m,

Very interesting picture you have brought. I mean the one showing Cotton and Longbottom. Every single depiction I have seen of N3071 showed it with "A" type fuselage roundels. I was aware of the presence of big "A" type ones on the undersurface, but had assumed, like everybody else, that they were also on the uppersurface. The traces of a camera port -like aperture on the radio hatch panel is also most intriguing.

Fernando

[Giorgio N]

Ben, those pictures are great and very useful, thanks for sharing ! Even if they mean I now have to repaint the PR.Ia I built many years ago from the airfix kit...

Edited September 16, 2013 by Giorgio N

[Fernando]

Hi Ben!

I am on the process of building a bunch of PR Spits, so your pictures are of the utmost interest for me.

I think I have detected something (might be I am doing a "high Gaston" in HS parlance); may be you already assumed that... are they two planes? the two pictures in the middle seem to depict a plane with a PR windscreen? The first and the last shows undoubtedly one with a fighter windscreen, but the other two should show different shadows for the armoured windscreen... In case they are two... which ones?

Second, have you seen the picture of N3117 at the On Target Publications n° 8 book? On page 24 it shows a picture of it, and it has Type A roundels on fuselage and above the wings, much like the standard representation of it that is commonly seen. Perhaps people assumed that N3071 was the same?

Fernando

[mattharris]

Hi chaps.
Firstly, thanks for this incredible thread, you guys have put together some amazingly detailed research.

I know this thread hasn't been active for some time, but I'm hoping someone here might be able to help me with some more details about the early Recon Spitfires - in particular any details or images specifically relating to Spitfire N3069.

I'm trying to find out more as N3069 was flown by my Great-Uncle - Claude Wheatley when it was shot down. In particular I'm hoping to find a picture of that exact plane, does anyone know if one exists?

Also, does anyone know if any of these planes have survived in museums anywhere? If so, does anyone know where I might find one?

Any help greatly appreciated!
Thanks again

[Troy Smith]

Hi chaps.

Firstly, thanks for this incredible thread, you guys have put together some amazingly detailed research.

I know this thread hasn't been active for some time, but I'm hoping someone here might be able to help me with some more details about the early Recon Spitfires - in particular any details or images specifically relating to Spitfire N3069.

I'm trying to find out more as N3069 was flown by my Great-Uncle - Claude Wheatley when it was shot down. In particular I'm hoping to find a picture of that exact plane, does anyone know if one exists?

Also, does anyone know if any of these planes have survived in museums anywhere? If so, does anyone know where I might find one?

Any help greatly appreciated!

Thanks again

Hi Matt

interestingly the local free community paper 'Lewes News' last issue had an article about Claude Wheatley, as he was from Lewes.

A lot of the information came from a Dutch researcher. I've not got the paper to hand, but I'll add in the link to the site listed.

The article has a photo, this one IIRC

If this is N3071, and not N3069, then N3069 should look very similar.

Let me know if you want a copy of the paper, though this might have been the article that has spurred his post.

HTH

T

[Peter Roberts]

Does anyone have a handle on when the change from Camotint to PRU Blue occurred? Or when PRU Blue was introduced on PRU Spitfires?

PR

[mattharris]

Troy that would be amazing if you could get the paper, even a picture or a scan of it would be wonderful. I'm doing a lot of family history research and if the local paper in Lewes printed something on Claude that recently I would love to see it!

[Troy Smith]

Troy that would be amazing if you could get the paper, even a picture or a scan of it would be wonderful. I'm doing a lot of family history research and if the local paper in Lewes printed something on Claude that recently I would love to see it!

HI

I just looked up the link given in the paper(which is wrong) but enough to find the page.

http://www.arga-nl.nl/pages/herwen_spitfire_uk.html

this has more detail than the paper, but that has some info about Mr Wheatley as well

I can send the paper, just Private Message me your postal address.

[Troy Smith]

Does anyone have a handle on when the change from Camotint to PRU Blue occurred? Or when PRU Blue was introduced on PRU Spitfires?

PR

in 1940, there are photos of a PR I captured in France, in overall mid tone colour, but I don't know if it replaced 'camotint'

The third intact Spitfire captured by the Germans was a PR 1B of No. 212 Squadron, serial P9331. This aircraft made a forced landing at Rheims-Champagne on June 7, 1940 and was later captured when the airfield was taken by German forces.

others will hopefully know more.

[Fernando]

Hi, Peter and Troy,

The Ventura book says that from the second pair of machines, the PR.1Bs, identified as N3116 and N3117, received by Cotton in January, 1940 (but it mentions an operation undertaken sometime before on a PR.1B?), added to the third "batch", P9307-9310, received on February, a colour "Camotint Blue-Grey" began to be used, after some experimentation. Pictures of K9791, shot down over the Ruhr on August 1940 and exhibited by the Germans in a victory parade held in Vienna that same year ("Der Sieg im Westen" -"Victory in the West") it looks a medium dark colour that might well be "Camotint Blue-Grey", with the code numbers "LY", suppossedly in MSG, clearly lighter, and a thin light outer ring in the fuselage roundel, typical of PRU Blue machine to better separate it from the Roundel Blue.

FErnando

[Graham Boak]

The capture of P9331 was blamed on Cotton ignoring instructions (or at least very strong hints) to evacuate earlier.

[ben_m]

Hi, Peter and Troy,

The Ventura book says that from the second pair of machines, the PR.1Bs, identified as N3116 and N3117, received by Cotton in January, 1940 (but it mentions an operation undertaken sometime before on a PR.1B?)

Remember by the time N3116 and N3117 were operational, N3069 and N3071 had been converted to Type B spec (8" lenses and extra fuel tank behind pilot). Not sure if N3069 and N3071 had the windscreen armoured glass removed, or indeed if they had upper roundels added and fuselage ones standardised to Type A.

The ID image distributed after the Hudson friendly fire incident shows Spitfires in camotinit with type A roundels in all positions:

Which suggests to me that the ex-Type A's might have worn these markings too at this stage.

This matches The published image of N3117 on delivery, and these of a nose-over on wet ground:

As to when PRU Blue became standard for PR I'm not sure. I don't think I've seen a Type D in anything other than PRU blue, and I think there is a series of photos of a Type C in what looks to be PRU Blue, but it could be another blue-grey.

[Peter Roberts]

Thank you for the responses guys.

Troy, your photos look to me to be PRU Blue. I know, interpreting B/W photos is a bit fraught, but that Spitfire looks too dark to be Camotint to me, which suggests PRU Blue in my book. If so, then in use by June 1940.

Great find Fernando, thank you. Your info suggests experimentation in February 1940, so possible implementation by March/April 1940, if not February, which would match with Troys photos.

Sorry Ben, I am not getting any photos with your post (?) but some interesting points. (second edit - photos have appeared! Great shots, thank you for posting. Haven't seen those before.)

Edit - tried to find the post on the PRU Hudsons (it was here, wasn't it?) but failed - when was the friendly fire incident?

Edit (again) - 3 March 1940 friendly fire.

PR

Edited May 19, 2016 by Peter Roberts

[gingerbob]

I think this is the thread you're looking for.

Edited May 19, 2016 by gingerbob

[Fernando]

Hi, ben_m,

I take the chance to bring to your attention some comment I made at the time to the pictures you uploaded back in 2013, and can still be seen in the first page of this very thread.

The first and the fourth show one machine, the second and third show another.

First an fourth show armoured windscreen (and "B" roundel underwing -first- and small "B" roundel fuselage -surely fourth, but might be first?)

Second and third show round windscreen and big "A" roundels (identified as N3071?). The shadows cast by cockpit frames should be differente in case of an armoured windscreen.

First and fourth show N3069 (logical deduction)?

FErnando