Roden 1/144 720

[Vlamgat9]

Aren't reasonably accurate JT3Cs available in one of the Minicraft 707 kits? Or am I just dreaming?

The minicraft 707s have JT-3D turbofans rather than 3C turbojets. They look pretty different.

[F-RSIN]

There are three versions of the Minicraft 707.

-320 with JT4A engines

-420 with Conways

-320B/C with JT3Ds

No JT3Cs I'm afraid. I don't know how accurate the engines are or if they could be used to make convincing JT3Cs.

Laurent

[madaboutmodels]

You betray your young age my friend

I didnt mean euro white liverys are better, they are normally boring, but i think that the cubana euro white is much nicer lol

[F-RSIN]

Jennings Heilig, on 17 Sept 2013 - 2:08 PM, said:

You betray your young age my friend

Or put it this way, we betray our old age.

[Jennings Heilig]

The problem with the Roden kit is that they've essentially done JT4A nacelles on the 720, which no 720 ever had. The shape and proportions of the JT3C and JT4A nacelles on 707s are actually very close, but the size is markedly different. The JT4A nacelle is pretty much a scaled up version of the JT3C nacelle. No long-body 707 ever flew with JT3C engines.

The only options to correct Roden's dumb mistake is to rob engines from the Revell 707 or wait for the aftermarket to do some. Or just buy Kurt's magnificent 720.

[Vlamgat9]

Apparently welsh models used to do some resin jt3cs....

[David G]

Apparently welsh models used to do some resin jt3cs....

They do a complete 720 if you want one! I have the Lufthansa version in the loft and it isn't a bad kit although I bought it before Kurt produced his masterpiece. If I was looking for a 720 nowadays I know where I'd spend my money and it wouldn't be on the Roden kit.

[Vlamgat9]

A couple of issues with Kurt's kit:

- it is €63 plus postage vs €20 plus postage for the Roden

- it is out of stock

- it's a 720B and so has JT3D turbofans - even less help to those of us wanting to build a JT3C turbojet 720 than the Roden kit!

[pinky coffeeboat]

Oh dear. I know that on here and a few other forums this kit has been reviewed and its various issues commented upon. And as the title of this thread states, it's generally grim news - a few posters in each thread have written they will pass on it, buy Authentic Airliners (Kurt) kit or build the Welsh Models vacform. Now without criticising vacforms (I'M NOT ) they are often seen as the last resort due to their perceived difficulty (!) and an all resin kit is sometimes many times the cost of the injection moulded kit, I'm wondering what (if any) Rodens response will be?

Here they have (had?) the potential to give us a great kit that many have been wanting for years. What they have given is a nice kit with oversize engines that will spoil the look of the finished model (now, there are other issues but this seems to be the worst). This is the area commented on most by modellers in forums and the solution is to spend a bit more money on alternately sourced engines.

Without simplifying the other issues, do you think Roden will take onboard what's being written about the engines and possibly amend their moulds or mould a whole new sprue of correctly sized engines? Or like Revell and their 737, will they ignore everything and keep releasing the kit with different decals?

Are Roden planning a fan jet 720 release?

To me it just seems a pity that about 90% of the kit is ok but on all the forums it seems full of "I'll pass on this one, thanks".

Have Roden missed out or can they pull a recovery out of the bag and retool the engines? I'd love if they did but I won't hold my breath....

[pinky coffeeboat]

A couple of issues with Kurt's kit:

- it is €63 plus postage vs €20 plus postage for the Roden

- it is out of stock

- it's a 720B and so has JT3D turbofans - even less help to those of us wanting to build a JT3C turbojet 720 than the Roden kit!

That's often the case when I've been looking to buy some AA accessories - they're usually out of stock. I understand people have jobs and a life beyond the model bench, it seems that if its in stock buy it there and then don't hesitate as it'll be gone next time you look.

[Jennings Heilig]

A couple of issues with Kurt's kit:

- it is €63 plus postage vs €20 plus postage for the Roden

- it is out of stock

- it's a 720B and so has JT3D turbofans - even less help to those of us wanting to build a JT3C turbojet 720 than the Roden kit!

Kurt is working on a turbojet powered 720 as I type these words... As for the price, you get what you pay for, plain and simple. I'd venture that Kurt's kit is worth FAR more than 3:1 against the Roden "thing". At least Kurt's kit actually reasonably represents the airplane it's advertised as. Roden can't really say that.

[Mike]

Take some deep breaths Jennings - you're getting way too over-excited about what amounts to a new set of engines and some panel lines that need moving... calling it a "thing" is a little over-dramatic, don't you think? Yes, it needs some work, yes they should have done it right in the first place, but everyone is human(ish) and therefore fallible. If you don't cut anyone else any slack in that respect, how can you expect any when you make a mistake?

Being aware of errors in kits so that you can make an informed decision is a good thing - blowing things up out of all proportion isn't, and results in people not taking you seriously.

[Neil]

Are there any readilly available drawings for the 720? Engines in particular I guess. I dont really move in the Airliner modelling circles, so I do not really know a huge amount about them, but for obvious reasons I will happily build the Led Zeppelin aircraft, so I will make some new engines for it, if they are that noticeably different to what they should be.

Does anyone have any pics of the decal sheet for the 'Zep aircraft, by the way?

[Pin]

http://www.pas-decals.ru/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=18&id=4691&Itemid=142

[Jennings Heilig]

Take some deep breaths Jennings - you're getting way too over-excited about what amounts to a new set of engines and some panel lines that need moving... calling it a "thing" is a little over-dramatic, don't you think?

Not really. Your opinion is your opinion, and my opinion is my opinion. The kit is, in my opinion, a piece of trash. In fact, that's where my copy went last week.

[Mike]

[Jessica]

We all need to sit in a big circle and repeat the Monty Python mantra.

[pinky coffeeboat]

Ok, for those who haven't binned theirs, those who may be interested and for those who may actually read anything I write, the clear part has been dealt with last night.

I applied a bead of filler all around the flight deck clear part several nights ago and last night it was gently sanded back and - Jennings you may disagree/need to sit down - it actually looks good!!!!! Granted it does need a skim of filler over it again to account for shrinkage but it does look quite nice indeed.

About the wings - does anyone know just how much dihedral the wings should have? There is a fair amount on the real aircraft but mine seem to resemble the wings of a 787 as they've so much bend in them. Should the trailing edge be straight? I've got a gentle curve in mine when looking at the trailing edge.

So far, despite all that's been written and things I've written too, it's shaping up quite nicely. All we need are a set of resin engine replacements (which may or may not be due soon) and about 99.99999% of modellers will be content with what they've got.

Not bad for a "little plastic toy aeroplane"!!!!!

Jeff

Edited September 19, 2013 by pinky coffeeboat

[F-RSIN]

The kit is, in my opinion, a piece of trash. In fact, that's where my copy went last week.

Too bad. I'm sure you could have sold it. Or kept some of its parts for a conversion. Surely the wings can be used to make a 707-120B, or even a -120 or -220 if you remove the glove?

Laurent

[Vlamgat9]

Kurt is working on a turbojet powered 720 as I type these words... As for the price, you get what you pay for, plain and simple. I'd venture that Kurt's kit is worth FAR more than 3:1 against the Roden "thing". At least Kurt's kit actually reasonably represents the airplane it's advertised as. Roden can't really say that.

Has it ever occurred to you that some people cant afford to spend €70 on a lump of resin?

If kurt was a smart businessman he'd run off his 720 turbojet pods (whenever they finally come to fruition) as a replacement for Roden's. He'll sell far more of them than he ever will of the full kit (particularly now roden have released an injection kit).

Not really. Your opinion is your opinion, and my opinion is my opinion. The kit is, in my opinion, a piece of trash. In fact, that's where my copy went last week.

Instead you could simply have given it to a fellow modeller. I'd have happily taken it off your hands for the price of the postage.

[pinky coffeeboat]

Kurt is working on a turbojet powered 720 as I type these words... As for the price, you get what you pay for, plain and simple. I'd venture that Kurt's kit is worth FAR more than 3:1 against the Roden "thing". At least Kurt's kit actually reasonably represents the airplane it's advertised as. Roden can't really say that.

.

It seems to me, if I were spending three times the amount of a Roden 720 on a resin kit, I'd expect it to be more than "reasonably represent" the actual aircraft!!!

Throughout this whole topic the main areas of contention are the engines. Panel lines in the wrong place, cabin window apertures too small and/or wrongly placed can all be dealt with by filling and decals if you so desire.

I haven't read anywhere in this topic about any issues shape wise with the model. I have read- "The shape of the vertical fin is just about spot-on though" (Jennings words near the start if this topic),

"The good news is, the fuselage shape and dimensions are pretty good. Close enough to scale that it's really not worth mentioning anyway" (Jennings words again)

"I also still think the cockpit windows look wonky. The overall outside shape of the part is okay, but the shapes of the windows themselves are wrong and the frames between them are far too fat."

Again Jennings words and I've also read on other forums the shape of the wing is good, the shape of the rear horizontal stabilisers is accurate.

So apart from the engines, overall the shape is pretty good? Or have I missed something?

Don't think I'm quoting Jennings to irritate him, just trying to work out where exactly the alternative kit scores so highly? Accurate engines? Slightly sharper detail?

So for inaccurate engines and some fine detail errors, this kit has been trashed and condemned. If Roden release a fan jet version with decent engines, will anyone's opinion change? Or will it still only be fit for the bin?

Jeff.

( I do respect everyone's opinion but as someone occasionally points out its only a little plastic toy airplane for goodness sake!!!)

Edited September 19, 2013 by pinky coffeeboat

[David G]

Has it ever occurred to you that some people cant afford to spend €70 on a lump of resin?

If kurt was a smart businessman he'd run off his 720 turbojet pods (whenever they finally come to fruition) as a replacement for Roden's. He'll sell far more of them than he ever will of the full kit (particularly now roden have released an injection kit).

Instead you could simply have given it to a fellow modeller. I'd have happily taken it off your hands for the price of the postage.

I'm sure Jennings can and will reply for himself but as far as your first question is concerned, the answer is "of course" although with all due respect describing Kurt's superb kit as "a lump of resin" isn't really very helpful and neither is questioning his business expertise.

There are several cases where airliners are available both as injection kits and resins or vacforms. To give just a few random examples -

Airfix and Welsh Tristars;

S&M, Welsh and Authentic Airliners Viscount 800s;

Minicraft and Welsh Boeing 707s;

Airfix and Authentic Airliners B737-200s;

Minicraft and Welsh B777s; and, of course,

Minicraft, Welsh, PAS and Authentic Airliners Boeing 757s.

If there wasn't a market for premium products companies like Welsh and Authentic Airliners would have gone out of business years ago. I suppose it's the same principle as the motor industry. Some people are happy to drive Ford, Skoda, Peugeot etc (I drive a Skoda Octavia) while others want top end stuff like Mercedes, Lexus, or Porsche. Obviously the latter require a much greater financial commitment but it's a matter of individual choice.

Edited September 19, 2013 by David G

[richellis]

how utterly ridicules to throw a kit away because it didn't meat your exacting standards. Why not give it away, sell it, or if you are so rich money doesn't bother you give it to charity for them to sell.

Now why not show us your skills and build us a 100% accurate 720 so we can see how its done?

[Vlamgat9]

I'm sure Jennings can and will reply for himself but as far as your first question is concerned, the answer is "of course" although with all due respect describing Kurt's superb kit as "a lump of resin" isn't really very helpful and neither is questioning his business expertise.

There are several cases where airliners are available both as injection kits and resins or vacforms. To give just a few random examples -

Airfix and Welsh Tristars;

S&M, Welsh and Authentic Airliners Viscount 800s;

Minicraft and Welsh Boeing 707s;

Airfix and Authentic Airliners B737-200s;

Minicraft and Welsh B777s; and, of course,

Minicraft, Welsh, PAS and Authentic Airliners Boeing 757s.

If there wasn't a market for premium products companies like Welsh and Authentic Airliners would have gone out of business years ago. I suppose it's the same principle as the motor industry. Some people are happy to drive Ford, Skoda, Peugeot etc (I drive a Skoda Octavia) while others want top end stuff like Mercedes, Lexus, or Porsche. Obviously the latter require a much greater financial commitment but it's a matter of individual choice.

I think you may be being a bit over-sensitive on Kurt's behalf.

Kurt's 720 is by all accounts spectacular. But it remains an expesnive lump of resin when compared with daily necessity's like paying the electricity bill.

And I was not questioning his business judgment - I was making a suggestion as to how he might have a nice little earner off the back of Roden's boo boo.

The 'premium' products you refer to are often not 'premium' at all. I have a Welsh Victor Mk2 in the stash and frankly it's as rough as badger's behind. . This isnt to disrespect Welsh - cottage industries thrive by filling a gap not met by the mainstream and if you want a Victor M2 in 144 Welsh is pretty much your only option. The fact something is cottage or niche doesnt mean it is by definition premium.

In any event when the mainstream moves into the same subjects then the cottage sales almost always drop accordingly. Kurt's sales of 720s are bound to drop as up to now he has been pretty much the only option. But he could do us all a favour and make himself a few quid by doing some replacement engines for the Roden. Maybe he will not consider that worth his effort - but at some stage someone else will and then we will all be happy and have a largely injection 720 for around €32. Maybe Jennings will regret binning his kit at that point. Then again, maybe not,

[David G]

I have no idea what an ancient Welsh V-bomber has to do with anything but to put matters beyond doubt I do not speak for Kurt, let alone feel "over-sensitive" on his behalf. I have no connection with him other than as a very satisfied customer.

The simple point I was making is that there are and always will be people who are willing to pay a bit extra for a better product whether it's running a Lexus car, flying Easyjet Plus or buying Authentic Airliners kits. At the end of the day it is a matter of personal choice how you spend whatever money you have. Several of Kurt's kits duplicate injection versions which existed before he tooled them (737-200, 727-100 and -200, 707-320B, 757 and, arguably, DC-9-10) and he obviously sells enough to make their production worthwhile. It goes without saying that for the price you are entitled to expect a top quality product and Authentic Airliners deliver this every time. It may be a niche market but it's one that I personally am willing to buy into even if it means doing without something else. I speak for no-one except myself

Edited September 21, 2013 by David G