Coastal Command Mossies - EDSG over ?

[wally7506]

Coastal Command Mossies, Banff Wing

EDSG over Sky? or EDSG over MSG?

And, what's with all the different shades of topcoat?

js

[Col.]

Tempted to say MSG but too lasy to go check.

As for the different shades of EDSG - they lived a hard life being flown regularly in combat through less that ideal weather and the Moray coast can go from scorching hot in the sunshine to freezing rain in no time so I dare say that took its tole on the paintwork.

[Troy Smith]

EDSG over sky

see http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234927335-max-guedj-mosquito/

despite the washed out colour in 2nd pic I've never seen any reference to Coastal Command Mosuito's being anything other than sky underneath.

HTH

T

[wally7506]

Cool.

I have the 2nd pic and it sure looked MSG to me.

Thanks

js

[rossm]

EDSG over Sky was the standard scheme but I have a note http://www.hrmtech.com/SIG/articles/coastal_cam.asp that Mosquitos were first introduced in the night fighter scheme of DG/MSG. This could be because some squadrons like 264 were notionally nightfighter squadrons but sent to Coastal Command for Biscay patrols.

Paul Lucas in Combat Colours 6 states all FB.VIs were produced in nightfighter scheme but the EDSG/Sky Special Coastal Duties scheme was introduced for Beaufighters in November 1943 and Mosquitos from mid-December 1943 and was applied over the top of the DG/MSG scheme on the production line - presumably because FB.VIs were going to non-coastal units as well all aircraft started life in the nightfighter scheme.

Ross

[Nick Millman]

FWIW that washed out Sky that looks like Sea Grey, Medium in the second image might just be Sea Grey, Medium.

Writing in 1968 Michael J F Bowyer observed (my emphasis):-

"By Christmas 1944, the Mosquitoes of the Command (Coastal) seem generally to have acquired dark grey upper surfaces (extra dark, probably) and had either Sky or medium sea grey under surfaces. Code letters were now placed forward usually, yet sometimes no squadron letters were used, only the aircraft letter ahead of the roundel. PZ446 of 143 Sqn featured grey/Sky paintwork with forward codes and RP racks."

Perhaps the Mosquitoes seen with MSG under surfaces were those delivered in the night fighter scheme with just the upper surfaces re-painted?

He also commented that:-

"I noted many Beaufighters in 1944 and '45 in the slightly blue tone associated with ocean grey"

with "paler undersurfaces" which he thought might have been Sky Blue.

He also describes Beaufighters of the Command with, more unusually, white under surfaces. This was confirmed by Alex Tough who described LZ792 seen at Lossiemouth without codes in September 1943 as having white under surfaces and that other Beaus seen there had "a definite blue" underneath. Further confirmation came from Robert H Ballard who reported that white fuselage sides, tail and under surfaces were common on Beaufighters he observed at Chivenor in the summer of 1942 being operated on Bay of Biscay patrols.

Whilst on the subject of Beaufighters (apologies if this is O/T) there was a brief period when they were being delivered from the factory with Sky under surfaces but the upper surfaces finished only in grey primer paint with the intention that the Air Servicing Units (ASUs) would apply the upper surface camouflage suitable to their recipient squadrons, either Temperate Land or Temperate Sea. This procedure was soon abandoned as it was found to delay rather than speed delivery.

Nick

[Super Aereo]

A.P2656A was still prescribing white for the undersides of Special Coastal Duty aircraft in October 1944, but I understand that exceptions were made for the Attack Wings whose crews felt too visible in machines with such light-coloured bellies.

[rossm]

A.P2656A was still prescribing white for the undersides of Special Coastal Duty aircraft in October 1944, but I understand that exceptions were made for the Attack Wings whose crews felt too visible in machines with such light-coloured bellies.

Amendment 1 to DTD 360 with a date stamp of 30 Mar 1944 changes the white undersides to Sky.

Previous isues of DTD360 (Feb and Nov 1943) have EDSG uppersurfaces and glossy white undersurfaces with the area between (Pattern 1 & Pattern 2 i.e. that would have been matt white on antisubmarine aircraft) in Dark Sea Grey!!!

Anyone ever seen this scheme (presumably on a Beaufighter)?

There is a handwritten scribble replacing White with Sky in the Nov43 issue but who knows who put that there and when?

This was only Special Duties scheme A - there was also a B with Black undersides which I don't think I've seen an example of in use.

So I guess Mosquitos came into Coastal Command in time for the (probably initially unofficial) change from White to Sky but I'm with Nick that MSG would have been an expediency that very likely happened.

PS - thanks to Edgar for helping with extracts from DTD360 which I will incorporate in my web page dreckly (as we say down yurr).

Ross

Edited September 1, 2013 by rossm

[Jim Kiker]

Hi all,

I've been having a look at these and other pictures of Mossies from these units. One thing I've noticed is that while many of these aircraft have had the engine exhaust shrouds removed, a fair number of them have what looks like a natural metal area round the exhausts. For those aircraft, the underside color seems more like MSG to my eyes. Conversely, when I see the same area around the exposed eshaust shrouds painted, the underside color looks more like Sky. Would this suggest that different airframes were getting top/bottom repaints at different times, or is this beyond our knowledge?

I have also seen some sources suggest that the EDSG applied on the upper surfaces was at least sometimes done in a thin coat, causing the underliying colors to show through a bit. That would also tend to make the EDSG look a bit lighter, I think. Is that correct? And if so, would a second thin coat of EDSG make it darker and more opaque? Interesting discussion, I hope there is more to be learned.

Cheers, Jim

[Super Aereo]

Amendment 1 to DTD 360 with a date stamp of 30 Mar 1944 changes the white undersides to Sky.

Thank you, I knew an amendment existed but I couldn't find the reference!!!

:-)

[Paul J]

For those that may or may not have the Aviaeolgy decals for the RCAF Mossies, there are notes in the instructions and photos to prove there were instances of two tone topsides. Comments are made within of the green being over painted with EDSG and hints of the green showing through.

[Jennings Heilig]

I have the 2nd pic and it sure looked MSG to me.

Proving that you shouldn't use photographs you find online as absolute proof of the color of anything...

[Paul Bradley]

I used a set of Terry's decals for my 1/24 build a couple of years back - the a/c looks rather different, and, dare I say, striking in this scheme!

Incidentally, the decals are excellent, and the included background notes are very comprehensive.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Paul Bradley

[wally7506]

Proving that you shouldn't use photographs you find online as absolute proof of the color of anything...

Which is precisely why I ordered a print from the RAF Museum (which should prove very interesting).