Olive Drab - and some confusion

[Test Graham]

As I understand it, Dana Bell does not believe in ANY significant use of ANA colours by the USAAF. This may be a little too restrictive, but I certainly feel that any such introduction would be limited because it could not have reached the production line much in advance of the decision to remove camouflage paint altogether from combat types, which would be some time in advance of these aircraft appearing in the ETO. If you believe that there is some earlier chronological factor in the various appearances of OD, then the answer will lie elsewhere.

Given the variety of shades of OD that can be seen on even a single type (note especially C-47) I suspect any differences came from the different paint manufacturers rather than any specific shift in specification. Ideally some US researcher will dig through the records to find which aircraft manufacturer used paint from which supplier for which batches of aircraft, and indeed how the batches of paint from each paint manufacturer varied. Until then the lack of consistent quality control over hues for OD41 is such as to overwhelm other post-facto explanations.

[Nick Millman]

Hi Fernando,

I have looked at many photos, some on Pinterest which were personal photos that you would not have seen in myriad books. We always need to beware of photos for color confirmation, but I have seen what I can only describe a dark drab green on some early T-Bolts, B-26's and P-39's. this of course could have been aberrational due to what was supplied to the factory, but clearly not the lighter OD so common on the majority of OD and NG aircraft arriving in Europe. Many reference books show the same shade regarding the first aircraft to arrive. I can't really explain it but perhaps Nick can confirm or deny the existence of this color, but the difference of shade are evident in the photos I have seen.

Cheers

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/15283-another-p-47-question/

Scroll down to the two images in post # 11 in the above thread for one probable answer. OD paint was applied in a matt or eggshell finish and when waxed and/or polished to make it lustrous - contrary to the strict requirements for camouflage - it would appear darker and slightly greener. The reason it looks more green is essentially to do with refraction and the way the application of a clear or tinted medium affects the reflectivity of the underlying surface colour by altering the mix of wavelengths. That is a horribly simplistic explanation and there are other aspects to this concerned with pigments and the same green/brown dichotomy that applies to WWI RFC aircraft. In essence yellow oxides in the mix emphasise green and red oxides emphasise brown which will be picked up according to individual perception. Engine heat and engine lubricants tend to darken paint surfaces too. Some US manufacturers were using chromium oxide (green) to make OD - tinting it with zinc or oxide browns - which provides a slightly stronger olive chroma than OD made from oxides with black, all of which might be picked up in the film emulsion - and dependent on the type of film. If Republic were applying paint like that and it was then being waxed and polished a definite dark green drab appearance could result. Having said that there are still plenty of colour photos of P-47s that appear to show fairly standard OD 41, albeit sometimes in patchy form, presumably from touch ups. Notice how neutral and gray the Neutral Gray appears too. Pactra used to make a nice rich, dark OD and Neutral Gray (in those little glass bottles) that had me scratching my head when I first used them. Now I wish they were still available.

Nick

[Spitfires Forever]

Thanks ever so much for your input, it makes a lot of sense, even to an old History major who barely passed chemistry in college. I suspected waxing as at least one of the major culprits in the darkening of the OD finish on some of these aircraft, at least this explains the P-47's. Perhaps a semi gloss coat on my next Razorback may provide the finish I am looking for. By the way, I am enjoying your book (which I highly recommend) on the Ki-84, I am gaining an appreciation for Japanese aircraft and look forward to building my Hasegawa kit.

Cheers

Edited September 4, 2013 by Spitfires Forever

[Seawinder]

Pactra used to make a nice rich, dark OD and Neutral Gray (in those little glass bottles) that had me scratching my head when I first used them. Now I wish they were still available.

Nick

Ah, those little square bottles! I'm still hoarding several of the Pactra International Colors French Khaki, which is my favorite middle-of-the-road Olive Drab.

Pip

p.s. Thanks again, Nick, for the help with the Shinden green.

[dragonlanceHR]

Pactra is available in Europe as an acrylic in small round bottles. But are those the same shades?

Vedran

Shinden green? Do tell

Vedran

[Seawinder]

Pactra is available in Europe as an acrylic in small round bottles. But are those the same shades?

Vedran

Shinden green? Do tell

Vedran

The Pactra paints I'm referring to were two old lines of enamels, long since discontinued. One line was more-or-less standard colors like "Insignia Blue," "Dark Olive," "Green," etc. -- not unlike the present-day small square Testors bottles. The other line, Authentic International Colors, was an attempt at hobby paints matched to colors used by specific countries. Small, square bottles with brown caps. They weren't particularly accurate or comprehensive, but they had a number of useful colors. I don't remember if Testors killed the line after they bought out Pactra or if it was already gone. Both lines of Pactra enamels were quite pleasant to brush or spray, and remarkably long-lived -- I've got a number of bottles from the early 80s that are still quite viable.

Cheers,

Pip

p.s. Not implying there was a special "Shinden Green." AircraftOfJapan.com was down for a day or so for maintenance, and Nick was kind enough to PM me some information about IJN dark green in answer to my query regarding the J7W1 I'm working on presently.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Seawinder

[Nick Millman]

What Pip said. The old circa 1970s little glass bottles not the more recent Testors takeover brand.

Where I was they were pretty much Hobson's choice except for Farst Scale Model Paint in orange tins which had an OD (M 62) that although nice and rich was a bit dark and the consistency of treacle. At first I was suspicious of the Pactra but came to like them. As with the old Humbrol paint when brush painted they covered perfectly opaquely in one thin coat and dried to a fine, consistently matt finish. I remember (maybe with rose-tinted glasses) using their OD 41, Medium Green 42 and Neutral Grey on Hasegawa P-40s and being very satisfied with the results - although the Neutral Gray was "full scale" dark and a bit of a shock at first. Then back in the UK with no Pactra it was troublesome finding a really good OOT/B OD again. The Humbrol colour (then) was useful only if you happened to run out of matt black.

I can confirm Pactra's longevity too.

Nick

[Spitfires Forever]

What Pip said. The old circa 1970s little glass bottles not the more recent Testors takeover brand.

Where I was they were pretty much Hobson's choice except for Farst Scale Model Paint in orange tins which had an OD (M 62) that although nice and rich was a bit dark and the consistency of treacle. At first I was suspicious of the Pactra but came to like them. As with the old Humbrol paint when brush painted they covered perfectly opaquely in one thin coat and dried to a fine, consistently matt finish. I remember (maybe with rose-tinted glasses) using their OD 41, Medium Green 42 and Neutral Grey on Hasegawa P-40s and being very satisfied with the results - although the Neutral Gray was "full scale" dark and a bit of a shock at first. Then back in the UK with no Pactra it was troublesome finding a really good OOT/B OD again. The Humbrol colour (then) was useful only if you happened to run out of matt black.

I can confirm Pactra's longevity too.

Nick

You mention longevity. I have found that over the years the longevity of enamels is much less than back in the day. I know you can confirm this Nick, the American EPA standards over the years are at least partially responsible for removing the preservatives that made the paints last. I have found that at 4.00 usd per bottle of MM enamels, I may be able to spray two kits (if they are quickly done within in a short time) before the paint starts drying out. I cleaned out my air tight paint locker and threw out 30.00 worth paint that was only three months old and had less than 1/3rd of the paint used. Any tips on keeping my paint from drying out so soon? This is getting expensive.

Cheers

[Navy Bird]

You mention longevity. I have found that over the years the longevity of enamels is much less than back in the day. I know you can confirm this Nick, the American EPA standards over the years are at least partially responsible for removing the preservatives that made the paints last. I have found that at 4.00 usd per bottle of MM enamels, I may be able to spray two kits (if they are quickly done within in a short time) before the paint starts drying out. I cleaned out my air tight paint locker and threw out 30.00 worth paint that was only three months old and had less than 1/3rd of the paint used. Any tips on keeping my paint from drying out so soon? This is getting expensive.

Cheers

I found the same behaviour with Testors Model Master colours. What I've done to prolong their shelf life is to meticulously clean both the inside of the cap and the lip of the bottle after each use. And I mean meticulously! No trace of paint! The other trick I've used is to transfer them to empty Gunze or Tamiya bottles that I had cleaned completely of any trace of paint. I think the plastic seals inside the caps of the Gunze and Tamiya bottles are far superior to the paper/foil that is inside the Testors cap.

I have a large number of the old Pactra Authentic International Colors bottles, and they're still good! Easily 35 years old. I've kept them in the dark, and only let them out on special occasions! I've also found that Gunze has a remarkable shelf life as well. I have over 600 bottles of Aqueous Hobby Color left from when I was a dealer in the late 80s, and the stuff is like new.

Cheers,

Bill

[Nick Millman]

You mention longevity. I have found that over the years the longevity of enamels is much less than back in the day. I know you can confirm this Nick, the American EPA standards over the years are at least partially responsible for removing the preservatives that made the paints last. I have found that at 4.00 usd per bottle of MM enamels, I may be able to spray two kits (if they are quickly done within in a short time) before the paint starts drying out. I cleaned out my air tight paint locker and threw out 30.00 worth paint that was only three months old and had less than 1/3rd of the paint used. Any tips on keeping my paint from drying out so soon? This is getting expensive.

Cheers

You might consider ambient temperature and whether your air tight paint locker is actually increasing it. The solvent evaporation issues of yore have largely been replaced by gelation issues caused by the cross-linking process of modern polymers. Without going into excessive detail about the processes involved the constraints of storage and reactivity are virtually impossible to overcome for ambient temperature crosslinking systems involving the simple reaction of functional groups to the polymer and curing agent. In some cases the reaction temperature can be lower than the storage temperature. Even where it is borderline or occasional a chain reaction can begin which has little to do with evaporation and exposure (although those don't help) and once started will continue however tightly the bottle or tin is sealed. The gelation of the paint is slightly different to drying out but the end result is more or less the same.

It is also important to minimise the time the paint tin or bottle is exposed open to the air so leaving the cap off during a painting session can be an issue, again exacerbated by ambient temperature. It is always better to decant the paint you need for the job if you can and to re-seal the tin or bottle as quickly as possible. As Bill mentioned keeping the seals clean is important and in that respect I personally prefer tins which are usually easier to keep clean than the screw-thread bottle lids.

As a brush painter (by choice) it is ironic that when we had well behaved paints the surface detail on kits was pretty crude. Now that it is exquisitely fine we have paints that are more problematic, less predictable and generally unfriendly to the brush! The dispersal of pigment solids in some paint brands that still need thinning in order to spray them effectively leaves me nonplussed. Spoilt by historic Humbrol I really dislike having to accept a streaky finish and multiple coats as the norm (not all my models are Fokker Triplanes). I want to go back to the 1960s but take my kit stash and references with me...

Nick

PS since replying I checked the composition of Testors enamel paint but could find no evidence of the binder properties and whether any plasticiser is used. The known constituents are fairly traditional and would be prone to oxidation and evaporation whilst fairly stable for ambient temperature. The solvent is VM&P (Varnish Makers and Painters) Naphtha and Mineral Spirits but it also uses Amorphous Silica Gel as a matting agent. The pigments and filler used appear conventional enough.

[Spitfires Forever]

Thanks again Nick. I have tried to keep the bottle rims clean as well as the inner cap. I have read that auto gasket material works well, and even a touch of petroleum jelly will work too. The suggestion of keeping the bottle closed during painting sessions will help I am sure. I usually try to do that anyway but get so caught up in the messy painting process that I tend to forget, and lately I have gotten so busy with a kit that I forget to clean the brush, my son read me the riot act on that one! As to brush painting kits, I can say the older Pactra and Testors bottle paints were smoother to apply, and with a really good brush you couldn't see the streaks if applied properly. Basically I am trying to save money on paint by not having to replace the bottles of it so often. Anyway, thanks for the tips, and I do understand most of the technical explanations, so keep them coming, I am never too old to learn something new, or at least I would like to think so!

Cheers

[Spitfires Forever]

I found the same behaviour with Testors Model Master colours. What I've done to prolong their shelf life is to meticulously clean both the inside of the cap and the lip of the bottle after each use. And I mean meticulously! No trace of paint! The other trick I've used is to transfer them to empty Gunze or Tamiya bottles that I had cleaned completely of any trace of paint. I think the plastic seals inside the caps of the Gunze and Tamiya bottles are far superior to the paper/foil that is inside the Testors cap.

I have a large number of the old Pactra Authentic International Colors bottles, and they're still good! Easily 35 years old. I've kept them in the dark, and only let them out on special occasions! I've also found that Gunze has a remarkable shelf life as well. I have over 600 bottles of Aqueous Hobby Color left from when I was a dealer in the late 80s, and the stuff is like new.

Cheers,

Bill

Hey Bill, do you remember when the old Pactra and Testors bottle paint were ten cents apiece? How about 25 cents? Now the Testors paint is up to two dollars for that itty-bitty bottle. I was going to invest in oil but I think model paints may be the way to go!

Cheers

P.S. I am feeling old, most of the guys on this site probably think that we were modeling when the dinosaurs were roaming the earth!

[John]

What Pip said. The old circa 1970s little glass bottles not the more recent Testors takeover brand.

Where I was they were pretty much Hobson's choice except for Farst Scale Model Paint in orange tins which had an OD (M 62) that although nice and rich was a bit dark and the consistency of treacle. At first I was suspicious of the Pactra but came to like them. As with the old Humbrol paint when brush painted they covered perfectly opaquely in one thin coat and dried to a fine, consistently matt finish. I remember (maybe with rose-tinted glasses) using their OD 41, Medium Green 42 and Neutral Grey on Hasegawa P-40s and being very satisfied with the results - although the Neutral Gray was "full scale" dark and a bit of a shock at first. Then back in the UK with no Pactra it was troublesome finding a really good OOT/B OD again. The Humbrol colour (then) was useful only if you happened to run out of matt black.

I can confirm Pactra's longevity too.

Nick

Humbrol 66 Olive Drab was a strange one. I haven't bought a tin in years, but it it certainly came out of the pot as a very dull blackish green. I recall a friend using it for painting tarmac roads on his N-gauge railway layout and it didn't look in the least odd.

If you varnished it the green component came through a bit more strongly. I have wondered if it was actually matched to BS381c 337 Very Dark Drab, the colour that was the original darker component on Finnish BAe Hawks, rather than a genuine Olive Drab.

John

[Navy Bird]

Hey Bill, do you remember when the old Pactra and Testors bottle paint were ten cents apiece? How about 25 cents? Now the Testors paint is up to two dollars for that itty-bitty bottle. I was going to invest in oil but I think model paints may be the way to go!

Cheers

P.S. I am feeling old, most of the guys on this site probably think that we were modeling when the dinosaurs were roaming the earth!

The sad thing is that I do remember Pactra and Testors at 10 cents a bottle. They were the little square bottles, Testors' was glass, but Pactra's was plastic. When the local corner store (about a two-mile bike ride) was having a sale, the paint could be had for a nickel per bottle. My weekly allowance disappeared quickly.

I don't remember any dinosaurs on those bike rides, but an occasional Wooly Mammoth ventured across the path. Smelly buggers, they were...

Cheers,

Bill

[Nick Millman]

Hi Bill

Were the Pactra bottles glass and later made of plastic or vice versa? The Pactra 'Authentic' bottles I still have are made of glass!

I know what you mean about the Wooly Mammoths. The paint brush hairs we used came from them and they stank out the cave.

Regards

Nick

[stevehnz]

I don't think we ever had pactra paints out here, used to see their ads in the stone tablets though. I think I'm too young to remember mammoths but I do remember being told I mustn't play with the neanderthal kids down the road cause they were too rough, so I must be almost as old as you guys.

Steve.

[PFlint]

I remember Pactra paint in small square bottles.....(very faded memory.......)

I currently have two bottles of Pactra paint that are made of plastic ; and they are 2/3rds ounce!

(Confederate gray and sadly not usable. )

[Navy Bird]

Hi Bill

Were the Pactra bottles glass and later made of plastic or vice versa? The Pactra 'Authentic' bottles I still have are made of glass!

I know what you mean about the Wooly Mammoths. The paint brush hairs we used came from them and they stank out the cave.

Regards

Nick

Good question, and I'm afraid I don't know the answer. I've had another look at the surviving Pactra Authentics in my workshop, and they're all plastic bottles. But I have a "normal" Pactra bottle of the same size (Gloss Dark Red), and it's glass. If I had to guess I'd say that glass came first.

Cheers,

Bill

[Spitfires Forever]

Since we are traveling down memory lane I got a great story (please indulge me this is a good one) so here goes. My first airbrush was a badger basic airbrush. I needed a source of air to spray my 1/25 scale Tamiya Tiger I. I couldn't afford the can of air and needed to spray my tank Afrika Corps sand. Anyway, I could tell that the tire valves on my mom's car would work just fine, I screwed the airbrush cap that was supposed to go on the air can onto my mom's tire valve. Well I flattened her left front tire spraying my kit. When my mom tried to drive to work she was very upset that the car would not move and she had to call roadside service to pump up the tire. I learned my lesson, try not to use all the air in one tire, just take a little from each tire, that way the car still drives and mom is none the wiser. She wasn't stupid, she caught on pretty quickly and I was banned from going near the car. But at least I got my kit sprayed! Up until that time I used Testors and Pactra bottle paints to paint my kits, sometimes the paint would go on so smooth that you really had to look to see that it wasn't airbrushed. By the way....any of you youngsters see where I put my car keys?

Cheers

[Caerbannog]

Hahahaha - nice story :-) No problems with overspray? A school friend once sprayed something (do not remebber what) happily black in the garage... next to the new white family car :-D Guess what. The father was not so amused.

[Spitfires Forever]

Hahahaha - nice story :-) No problems with overspray? A school friend once sprayed something (do not remebber what) happily black in the garage... next to the new white family car :-D Guess what. The father was not so amused.

Yes, now that I think about it, there was a nice outline of sprue and parts left on the garage floor, I had to leave my mark somehow? Think of it as a tribute to plastic modeling, the,work of a true artist!

[Chuck1945]

I had just graduated from college in 1967 and received my USAF commision. A former room mate asked me to get him that same basic Badger airbrush since I had access to hobby shop and he didn't. I got it for him along with an extra can of air. I hung newpaper all over the kitchen cabinets and floor and tried it out on the '60s vintage Revell He 219. As crude as that sprayer was, it made a believer of me and my first USAF paycheck was spent in part on a Paasche H and compressor.

[Spitfires Forever]

I had just graduated from college in 1967 and received my USAF commision. A former room mate asked me to get him that same basic Badger airbrush since I had access to hobby shop and he didn't. I got it for him along with an extra can of air. I hung newpaper all over the kitchen cabinets and floor and tried it out on the '60s vintage Revell He 219. As crude as that sprayer was, it made a believer of me and my first USAF paycheck was spent in part on a Paasche H and compressor.

I cannot imagine not airbrushing my kits, but all that cleaning can get a little old, I can't spare too many more brain cells, and that lacquer thinner is starting to make me hallucinate! Wher did I put those Jimi Hendrix albums anyway?

Cheers