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Olive Drab - and some confusion


Vingtor

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I would also point out that the C-87 above is a 1941 Fiscal Year aircraft, so will certainly have been built before the introduction of the ANA colours.

According to Joe Baugher, "The first Liberator transport was created by converting B-24D serial number 42-40355", and "All of the C-87s were built at Consolidated/Fort Worth and were delivered between September 2, 1942 and August 10, 1944. The first 73 C-87s were conversions from existing B-24Ds." Thus, despite the early serial number, it was converted and (re)painted at a later point in time. But still possibly before the switch to ANA colours.

Nils

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would be interested in reading this any chance l get a scan of this?

sadly , I do not have that article either.

but, I do have Quarter Scale Modeler Volume 2 issue 3 (1997)

that may offer other interesting things about the confusion over

varying shades of Olive Drabs

let me know if you are interested. (anyone)

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would be interested in reading this any chance l get a scan of this?

One I have found it. I cannot find the issue at home, thus I may have left it behind somewhere this summer ...

Nils

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This thread reminds me of the recent Geneseo NY Airshow, and the C-46 and C-47 which made appearances:

100_3794.jpg

Even in today's world, there is still a lot of variation. The C-47 has at least three different shades apparent, with clean demarcation lines, so that would seem to be recent repainting or changing of components (like the rudder). The C-46, on the other hand, was more like a light olive green, perhaps not OD at all.

Great airshow, by the way. The Lancaster was the star of the show! Thank goodness the Canadians are just across the lake from us! :):):)

Cheers,

Bill

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I remember having similar discussions at my I.P.M.S. chapter, in calif., back in the sixties. We talked to veterans,factory workers and museum staff. The veterans were the worst source for colour matters even at that early date. It had little bearing on staying alive after all. Our basic findings were that Olive drab was a mix of black and yellow ( try it ! ) and each factory had differant suppliers and they had differant suppliers and Formula. When mixing colours you can never mix the same colour twice. Added to this was that the earlier paint had a poor infrared tolerance. It faded outdoors sun or shine. You do need sunblock on your skin at the beach even if its cloudy don't you ! Later on in the war the quality of infrared tolerance improved. Paint, when applied, will vary depending on the surface that it is applied to, the method of application ( spray or brush ), amount of thinner used, etc. So the colour is going to change, over time, even if the same tin is used on the same plane. A metal suface and fabric one is going to wear and fade differantly. The U.S. aircraft built during WW II did not use the highest grade of Aluminum. Just look at the Japanese wrecks pulled from the Pacific compared to the American equivalents. So coupled to paint material issues we have a high degree of oxidation thrown into the equasion. As with anything to do with colour it is a MINEFIELD ! Do your reasearch to your best ability but don't go insane because exact colour is not going to happen. As a seperate coment, I liked that P-40 assembly line picture but I have to say it'a printed backwards. This is based on the rudder hinge and the rear cockpit panel fuel fillers. All the best and HAPPY modeling. Mikey W.

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Hey fernando, I'm sure some olive drabs have red in them but I still contend that you get an olive drab by mixing black and yellow. Have you tried it ? With your assertion of red in the mix it could explain the fading with a tan, pink, violet hue and all shades in between. Thanks for your feedback even if I don't completely agree. All the best, Mikey W.

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Hi, Mikey,

Interior Green (like Fs34151) and the infamous Tinted Zinc Chromate are mixes of Yellow and Black. They are a more "lurid" (geez, describing colours is SO difficult...) lacking the "warmth" of Olive Drab. I think that Paul Lucas (controverted as he is) gave once the different formulaes for RFC Green, the colour from which the lineage of Olive Drab can be traced (and a notorious chameleon also, it can be greener or browner), and they included reds and ochres in different proportions. But I tell you, yes, Black and Yellow produces some Green, but not the Olive Drab we are talking about.

Fernando

PD: even trying with the hobby colours available today, would not reflect totally what happened to the real paints, because the pigments are different.

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The pigment formula for Dark Olive Drab 41 was not specified but listed as 'optional'. This allowed manufacturers to formulate their own pigments for OD paints which whilst ostensibly matched to a single standard (and the Army vehicle standard was 319 in Spec. 3-1 of 1943) would inevitably head in different directions with exposure, treatment and weathering. There was also an acknowledgement of variance in the provision of paints as advised in Army FM 5-20H - Camouflage Materials and Manufacturing Techniques, Section 1. Paragraph 5, PAINTS. (e). ... of July 1944:-

"In spite of color standardization, there is considerable variation in hue between lots and between the products of different manufacturers."

There was also a difference in the appearance of the gloss and matt versions of the colour, used for different purposes.

Nick

Nick,

I was surprised to see that the OD 41 pigment formulation was not specified, and it certainly helps explain the colour anomalies seen in period imagery.

Just curious to know if other 'high profile' US or MAP colours were under the same laissez-faire freeedom to create the required paint colour with whatever pigments would produce the desired result?

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Hi Steve

Of the Bulletin 41 colours OD 41 and Medium Green 42 were both specified as optional pigments. The others were as follows:-

Neutral Gray 43 - titanium oxide (white - anatase chalking type probably), yellow iron oxide and lamp black

Black 44 - carbon black

Insignia Red 45 - toluidine red (Monoazo - Beta Naphthol Toluidine) - known for fading!

Insignia White 46 - titanium dioxide (non-chalking rutile type specified) tinted with iron blue (aka Prussian Blue - iron(III) hexacyanoferrate(II) or Ferric Ammonium Ferrocyanide)

Insignia Blue 47 - iron blue and rutile titanium dioxide

ID Yellow 48 - lead chromate type II (chrome yellow - Type I contains >50%PbCrO4, Type II contains >65% PbCrO4 and Type III >87%PbCrO4 with the rest of the pigment made up of lead sulfates, silicates, aluminium phosphate titanium or zircanium compounds).

I have some of the ANA suggested pigments and will provide further information about those when I recount US desert colours and some P-40 stuff at the blog shortly. Unfortunately a lot of these sort of details have not survived but UK documents suggest that MAP standard paints were largely optional and proprietary too although certain restrictions applied - for example Chromium Oxide was restricted to aircraft camouflage paint usage. Production during the war was a critical factor and the more tightly specified the pigments were the more risk of production issues from shortages.

Also in addition to the paint manufacturers using optional pigments they might procure proprietary pigments of differing quality or characteristics. So for example Toluidene Red was available under the proprietary names Harrison Red, Helio Fast Red, etc.

The mix would be calculated to match the standard swatch on inspection to the degree of tolerance required but thereafter once applied to airframes paints from different manufacturers could head in different directions. Even the FS 595b allows for a degree of latitude:-

"S3.3.3 Color Matching Criteria. In specifying color, the procurement documents should state:

a.The FED-STD-595 color number;

b. The source (or sources) of illumination under which the color is to be matched; and

c. The method by which the color is to be matched; either:

(1) ASTM D 1729 -- Visual Evaluation of Color Differences of

Opaque Materials -- state whether critical or general match; or,

(2) ASTM D 2244 -- Calculation of Color Differences from

instrumentally measured color coordinates. -- State for CIELAB color space the maximum color difference and the maximum hue difference tolerated. Name and address of organization supplying paint chip."

The 'missing link' is an absence of detail about how stringent wartime inspections and acceptance were. That there were inspections and acceptance is not in doubt but the degree of tolerance permitted, how consistent it was and the impact of wartime exigencies is unknown so far and must be presumed from other evidence.

Regards

Nick

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Yes, thank you for that Nick. Maybe not a lot of direct use to my modelling, but another stepping stone along the way to understanding why accurate colour choice is such a lottery. Maybe not germaine to this discussion, which I've found enormously useful in understanding why OD41 is as it is, but has there ever been published an analyis of where various important pigments came from, why their availabilty or otherwise was so important strategically & which nations suffered from a lack of various important pigments & how they overcame or at least tried to overcome this. Something less than 500 pages & guaranteed to send me nigh nighs for preference. ;)

Steve.

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Hi Steve

Not that I'm aware of. The sort of information you describe is scattered across thousands of archives and studies, by no means all aircraft related and in the form of "clues" as well as directly. Probably the most accessible coverage in print is the Pigment Compendium (Elsevier, regularly updated) but that is 958 pages and I'm not about to précis it...

I think the importance of colour accuracy - or fidelity - has risen in recent years and therefore demands are greater than they would have been in days of yore. Thus much pertinent but mundane data has gone into skips and incinerators because it was held to be of little historical value. Edgar Brooks very kindly passed to me a copy of a wartime UK Ministry of Supply study on pigment availability and substitution and I'm sure he would make it available to anyone else interested in the subject. But as to the processes of individual paint manufacturers and aircraft procurement that is a vast field with very little surviving and I think an underestimated factor when it comes to discussing paint colour. It is just too simplistic to think in terms of "ANA 613" paint being applied (for example) and better to conceive a situation where a distinct "family" of colour, e.g. Olive Drab, was being applied, matched perfectly or imperfectly to the standard, with variance by both aircraft manufacturer, paint manufacturer and batch. All the paint colours are identifiably Olive Drab but nevertheless not always the "same". I'm sorry to bang on about it again but the difference between a paint colour standard and an applied paint is really important although the distinction is seldom made in these discussions and the two are often conflated.

A key issue for modellers is the debate about applied paint colours often to agonising over it. But given all the possible permutations of variance, weathering and the scale factor it is often inconclusive. Probably the best starting point to understanding the basic characteristics of a colour as intended is the official paint colour standard and then to understand (and accept as inevitable) all the probable or possible variance from that when interpreting it on a scale model. Extant paint samples contribute to understanding variance - or consistency - and degradation but the most unreliable method is trying to glean paint colour from photographs, whether colour or monochrome. That can serve as a useful adjunct to other studies and help with weathering, etc., but I'm surprised how often it factors as the main foundation of a hypothesis about paint colour - as in the case of the AVG P-40.

Regards

Nick

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Thanks for that Nick, I had a feeling it wouldn't be as simple as pigments for numpties. I'll flick Edgar a PM in the next few days (off to bed now early start tomorrow. :( I'm sure that would be a good start on the topic, then all I'll need is a similar study by the Russians & Germans & I guess Italians & USA should cover it. oops, forgot Japan. :unsure: Maybe I'd be better learning to mind my own business, though it is a subject which from things I've read on the subject had an important bearing on the subject of fidelity of colours to standards.

Steve.

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Thanks for that Nick, I had a feeling it wouldn't be as simple as pigments for numpties. I'll flick Edgar a PM in the next few days (off to bed now early start tomorrow. :( I'm sure that would be a good start on the topic, then all I'll need is a similar study by the Russians & Germans & I guess Italians & USA should cover it. oops, forgot Japan. :unsure: Maybe I'd be better learning to mind my own business, though it is a subject which from things I've read on the subject had an important bearing on the subject of fidelity of colours to standards.

Steve.

Hi Steve

Learning to mind your own business? Not at all! Your interest is welcome and I would encourage more interest in and exploration of the subject of how pigments and their interaction can affect colour appearance. Personally I think it is a more rewarding avenue of exploration to understanding the vagaries of aircraft colour schemes than mulling endlessly over colour photographs.

I do have a 1945 MAP report for BIOS (British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee) on German aircraft paints that lists many pigment formulae by manufacturer too. I plan to make it available as a pdf in the not too distant future as it is a bit too long to cut and paste easily.

Nick

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Thanks for that Nick, I had a feeling it wouldn't be as simple as pigments for numpties...

all I'll need is a similar study by the Russians

...

Hello!

Actually Soviet pigments have been dealt already at this forum. See thread "VVS colours in the Great Patriotic War" http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933995-vvs-colours-in-the-great-patriotic-war/page-3?hl=%2Bsoviet+%2Bpigments#entry1230928 :

http://s4.postimage....x/pigmenty1.jpg

http://s3.postimage....n/pigmenty2.jpg

http://s3.postimage....j/pigmenty3.jpg

Source:

http://s4.postimage....l/pigmenty0.jpg

The source is from 1945 and the given Soviet pigment list is quite short so producing accurate Soviet colurs in hobby paint line should not be too difficult?

Cheers,

Kari

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Hi Kari, I have waded thru that thread several times & each time I glean some more about VVS colours. Mostly I have viewed it from the point of view of of looking for colour matches for the various VVS colours, as I commented on a post of yours where you gave save colour calls using Humbrol shades, I've found it very useful from that point of view. When it has got involved in deeper discussion of pigment & fading, cellulose & enamel etc, I quickly get a bit lost, though less so when I read it all through again. IMHO it all needs a good straight forward guide published in English with up to date cross references to modern hobby paints & if as Jason (Learstang) has said he wants to write one I for one would love to see him produce this, I'm sure it would become a valuable resource for modellers..

Not being able to read cyrillic, the links you give to the Russian publication about the pigments are lost to me & maybe this isn't very relevant to a modeller but the overall subject of pigments & their historical, commercial & strategic associations have assumed considerable interest to me after reading this thread & others involving other theatres & adversaries & the effects that were felt. Maybe I need to wade thru that thread some more. :unsure:

Steve.

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Hello , a very interesting thread indeed, but I have a question that pertains directly to modeling and proper olive colors. I noticed that many of the army P-47's that arrived in '42 and early '43 were a very dark drab green in comparison to what I assume would later be OD41. Some warbirds are painted in these colors, i.e. Planes of Fame P-47G Razorback and P-39Q. I noticed that some early B-17's were painted in the same dark drab early on. My real question is, should I use the MM Green Drab for the C and early D model Razorbacks or am I wasting my time because the early P-47's and B-17's could have been in any of the possible OD shades? I have also seen the B-17 in both shades of OD in modeling magazines. Needless to say, it is a bit confusing once one has to apply it to aircraft that could have been in any of the possible OD shades. Any advice?

Cheers

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I think the Model Master Green Drab (34086, I believe) is a very useful shade for some of those darker OD versions, including early P-47s. I sometimes mix it with a small amount of their 34087 (in itself not a very accurate rendition of that color, but it'll take the Green Drab slightly more toward Olive). I also used the Green Drab (slightly doctored perhaps -- I don't really remember) for a late B-25, photos of which looked very dark. In the end, I don't believe it's worth the effort to get too wrapped up in precision with such a variable color.

Cheers,

Pip

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I think the Model Master Green Drab (34086, I believe) is a very useful shade for some of those darker OD versions, including early P-47s. I sometimes mix it with a small amount of their 34087 (in itself not a very accurate rendition of that color, but it'll take the Green Drab slightly more toward Olive). I also used the Green Drab (slightly doctored perhaps -- I don't really remember) for a late B-25, photos of which looked very dark. In the end, I don't believe it's worth the effort to get too wrapped up in precision with such a variable color.

Cheers,

Pip

Thanks for the sage advice Pip, I've given it many times myself. Even with a seemingly simple camouflage as OD and NG ( which can provide it's own conundrum) there are many contradictions, yet I have seen so many pictures of early war T-bolts in the darker, and very often shinier/waxed? finish, Bud Mahurin's ride for instance. But you and I know as modelers we still fret over these issues and like to make our builds as accurate as possible. The mix you suggest should work, the rest I will trust to luck, and besides, I'm not trying to impress the Board of Review at the Smithsonian for possible inclusion in the collection. In reality the only one I need to please s myself, and when it comes to that I am my own worst enemy.

Cheers

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Hi, SpitfireAddict,

Your phrase "arrived in '42 and early '43 were a very dark drab green in comparison to what I assume would later be OD41" puzzles me, for OD41 existed much before that. After that date it is ANA 613 Olive Drab (possibly a lighter, browner colour) which should have been seen. OD41 should look very dark compared to that one, and it has been said for long that the USAAC clung to it as long as it could.

Fernando

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Hi, SpitfireAddict,

Your phrase "arrived in '42 and early '43 were a very dark drab green in comparison to what I assume would later be OD41" puzzles me, for OD41 existed much before that. After that date it is ANA 613 Olive Drab (possibly a lighter, browner colour) which should have been seen. OD41 should look very dark compared to that one, and it has been said for long that the USAAC clung to it as long as it could.

Fernando

Hi Fernando,

I have looked at many photos, some on Pinterest which were personal photos that you would not have seen in myriad books. We always need to beware of photos for color confirmation, but I have seen what I can only describe a dark drab green on some early T-Bolts, B-26's and P-39's. this of course could have been aberrational due to what was supplied to the factory, but clearly not the lighter OD so common on the majority of OD and NG aircraft arriving in Europe. Many reference books show the same shade regarding the first aircraft to arrive. I can't really explain it but perhaps Nick can confirm or deny the existence of this color, but the difference of shade are evident in the photos I have seen.

Cheers

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S.Addict, I don't think you and Fernando are contradicting each other. As he said, significant numbers of a/c were finished in the older (darker) shade well after the change-over had been officially made. I totally agree with you that there are plenty of photos showing a dark greenish drab on P-47s, P-38s, B-25s, etc.

Cheers.

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Seawinder,

Yes, that was the message I was trying to convey. Those darker aircraft were probably painted in the "old" OD n°41 instead of "new" ANA 613. Especially if those "OD and NG aircraft arriving in Europe" were B-17s and C-47s. My guess is that production of such a big aircraft as a B-17 didn't allow the paint to stockpile, so the new ANA 613 reached the line earlier. As per the C-47s, when the order came not to camouflage aircraft anymore, transports were specifically excluded from it (among others); therefore, the new ANA 613 is more probable to be found on these. No contradiction with what SpitAddict said, in my view.

Fernando

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