1/72 Jet Provosts - Finished

[LongMan2]

G'day Fritag,

Just some guidelines when using reference material:

When using scale plans one must always be careful. Always put your own scale rule against the drawing copy. (Watch out for joins or staples) Printers have been know to make mistakes just to fit the image on the page. Those plans are drawn with the available resources the drafter had at his or her disposal. Also, there is artistic license that comes into play, a temptation often to difficult to resist by some drafts persons I'm afraid; or is it a copyright ploy, I don't know the answer on that one! However, I know of only a select few who take the time to do it right, however a gentleman like - Arthur Bentley,- who's very accurate, does come to mind immediately. Yet, finding fault in scale plans is part of the fun, frustrating yes, but if you wish to do it right it must be done. Shame others have not make those mistakes be known; so as to help others in their model builds.

As for photograph reference, it is important to identify the lens and speed aperture when taking the photograph. The lens of the camera and the angle will be very important as it can distort the image. If I might explain, the human eye see's everything at 50mm, but most photographers use Zoom lenses from 70mm to 200mm or other sized zoom media lenses. In some cases in tight places a 35mm to 70mm lenses can be used to get all of the aircraft in the frame. But in doing so, the image is distorted and cannot be relied on to critically dimensionality assess a subject if using a zoom lens. The angle when taking the photograph has to be square on 90º for obvious reasons. Often the good photographers use a B&W scale reference chart which is held against the subject and in the frame when the picture is taken. These are the true photographs that should be used; if dimensions are critical. Again printers can also make mistakes with these to.

For colors, not until recently has there been a push for “True Colour” in digital photography. Again there should be digital information of the image recorded with light settings etc....... visible in the data of the image record. This then can be used when calibrating the color. Computer screen images should never be used as a true color reference unless the screen is calibrated. An overcast day is best for recording true color so I'm told. However digital settings can compensate for this but that's up to the experience of the photographer and type of camera. The old Kodachrome film was the mainstay for image reproduction, but there were others that can be all impacted by either good or poor developing practices. Again its really a hit or miss. Good tech orders on painting and maintenance records/practices are essential if good calls are to be made regarding colors.

All these subjects are really daunting and maybe I went on a bit. The only real way to do it right is to actually visit the aircraft either at the airport or in the museum. Ask all the questions you can about if this is a original or restoration as this is very important. However, what I've found is it's how far you want to take this issue. For me the phrase “Good enough for Government work" – ring true, after all it is a hobby that's supposed to be fun.... ...so make it so! Yet, if it was a museum standard model then one must be more critical.

PHIL

PS: Cool to see this, good learning tool on how it should be done.

Edited August 8, 2013 by LongMan2

[Roland Pulfrew]

Steve

I know it's a long time ago and my memory isn't what it used to be (too many Mess happy hours) but I was pretty sure the Fenton 3s had all black cockpits and it was the 5 that had the grey instrument panel.

The cardboard cockpit brings back memories, sat on top of my black faux-leather desk in my Mess room, next to the JSP318 & 318A (remember those?); don't tell me you've still got it!!

[Hamden]

I will enjoy watching you turn these two into a pair of master pieces.

Your Chipmunk build is going to be a hard act to follow, have ordered in the beers so I can sit back and watch

Roger

[keefr22]

OK, I'm late as usual, but I got here in the end! Carry on Steve....!!

(Ta Keef)

Welcome. And if you want any more of the Cosford one, just give us a shout.

K

PS resin kits are easy - they must be as I've built a few! (Just don't try gluing them together with Humbrol liquid poly!)

[keefr22]

I hadn't had chance to read through all the posts earlier Steve (was on my way out to the last day of our local Modelzone hoping the rumoured 75% off might have been true. It wasn't...!!) but have had a good read through now.

In addition to Ted's helpful hints on building resin kits I'll just add a few from my experience if I may (which I hope will be more helpful than my flippant liquid poly remark above). I can't use the thick superglue Ted mentions now (I'm alergic to the stuff & can only use Rocket Odourless), but even when I could I still did the same as I do now - whenever joining any major resin bits (fuselage etc.), I clean & true them up as Ted mentions (repeated dry fitting is absolutely essential with resin kits)then I try to just tack them together with some very small dabs of superglue, immediately set with a quick hit of accelerator applied with an old brush (the packs of cheap kiddies brushes sold in pound shops & the like are ideal for this as they're quickly ruined). This allows me to check that everything is still in alignment before running in thin superglue along the joint which I again set immediately with accelerator. The advantage of tacking joints first I find is that if I have managed to SNAFU the alignment I can usually quickly prize the parts apart with a pointed scalpel blade, usually without any damage - if you glue the whole joint straight off then that's it done for good...!! Also, if you get any superglue coming out of the joints, sand it down as soon as it's dry - as Ted mentions resin is soft - it's much softer than superglue that has been left to set for a few hours & then it becomes much more difficult to sand the two different materials down cleanly. Finally (phew!) most resin kits I've built have nothing in the way of locating tabs for wings, tailplanes etc - so I just use some .020 brass rod or similar glued into the fuselage with corresponding holes drilled in the wings etc as re-inforcement for the butt joints - I use relatively thin brass as its easier to bend to the right dihedral or whatever. I also try & drill & pin the attachment points for u/c legs etc as I find that makes it much easier to get the little blighters to stay in place!

HTH, & sorry if some of it sounds like teaching granny to suck eggs...!!

Keef

[David_DFN]

Hi,

As for your Chipmunk, it will be a in-progress reference build.

Edited August 15, 2013 by David_DFN

[Fritag]

HTH, & sorry if some of it sounds like teaching granny to suck eggs...!!Keef

Ta Keef. I've been a bit dilatory starting to cut plastic - and the main reason is it's a bit daunting - the resin is so soft and the detail so fine I just can't see it surviving your's truly's usual ham fisted style. I've got two of the CMR kits now - partly on the basis of one for now and one for later - partly on the basis that I might rob some bits for the JP5 and partly one the basis that I just know that I'm going to c**k some bits up so bad that a replacement will be needed

Steve, I know it's a long time ago and my memory isn't what it used to be (too many Mess happy hours) but I was pretty sure the Fenton 3s had all black cockpits and it was the 5 that had the grey instrument panel.

Roland,

My recollection was of grey panels - but that might have been influenced by the photo of the cardboard cut out. Anyways. I took a trip down to Newark and thanks to Howard and Alan there took a few photos of XM383 - an ex-Church Fenton T3A. That one at least had a grey panel:

But the rest of the cockpit was black. My speculation is that the panel became grey whith the avionics upgrade from the T3 to the T3A. I'm pretty sure that the whole of the cockpit in the JP 5 was grey.

Right.....

Trying to put off doing anything more serious and likely to get c***ed up - I decided to start with the CMR bang seats.

I've been megga impressed with the cockpit detail on the CMR kits. See what I mean?

You can even see what position the flap lever is in! (little lever just rearwards of the elevator trim wheel). Mind you - it's in the wrong place for a JP on the ground.....CMR have out it in the fully down (landing) position and I recall that we parked the JP with the flaps half down (take off). You know what - I may just let that one go..............

There's almost nothing left to do in the cockpit - which is good but also sad in a way. Happily(?) one thing I think CMR has got wrong is the bang seats. I think they are beautifully moulded:

But the JP seats don't have that hard structure around the sides of the parachute pack or that curious shaped cushion/strap. I think CMR copied a Mk 4 for a Lightning (see the hard surround and the green cushion/strap):

Rather than the Mk4P fitted in the JP (see no hard surround etc):

Anyways. Somthing to do some modelling on!!!

To get me back in the swing of things I've modified the bang seats by carving off the hard surround and cushion/strap, adding the drogue chute in the head box, the manual release handle and height adjustment lever and one or two cables etc. Even in 1/72 scale (perhaps more so in 1/72) the bang seats are one of the most visually important bits of the cockpit - so worth it I think:

Drilled/carved out the head box:

Blob of shaped milliput for the drogue chute:

Head box shackle:

Comparison pics (the copper wire is just rested in position - it will be the green oxygen hose in the fullness of time):

Mini update really.

Try to get some proper progress and meaningful post next time.

Hey - but at least it's started?

Steve

[keefr22]

Phew! Glad you're back Steve, I was starting to think my rubbish guide to building resin kits had put you off...!!

And we're already learning stuff in the thread - great work on those seats, I think I'd probably never have noticed the differences & just painted & stuck them in! I think I have some Pavla Lightning seats which from memory don't look as good as the CMR's. So I may modify those for the JP & save the CMR's for a couple of Airfix Frightnings when they arrive...!!

[perdu]

Ah yes

he begins

and blimey what a beginning

You are right Steve the bang seats draw the eye into a model and any obvious blemishes shade the impressions

great stuff, I'm here enjoying it all

bill

[Winenut]

Good luck Steve,

Hope it all goes well. I'm really looking forward to following this build.

Cheers

Winenut

[Fritag]

I think I have some Pavla Lightning seats which from memory don't look as good as the CMR's. So I may modify those for the JP & save the CMR's for a couple of Airfix Frightnings when they arrive...!!

I've got the Pavla Strikemaster set and I like the CMR seats more (strikemaster seats are a bit different anyway) - but I'm hoping to use the CMR seats from my second CMR kit in the Airfix JP 5 - if I can squeeze them in; cos I'm doing the 3A and 5A side by side it would be nice if the bits in common looked alike. I'll keep the Pavla seats to use sometime in the indeterminate future in the second CMR Mk3/4.

The Airfix JP feels reassuringly plastic (cf resin) - but not looking forward to the re-scribing. Speaking of which I've just taken delivery of some 3M blue 471 3mm vinyl tape that Kev67 reccomended on another thread....

Edited August 20, 2013 by Fritag

[keefr22]

The Airfix JP feels reassuringly plastic (cf resin) - but not looking forward to the re-scribing. Speaking of which I've just taken delivery of some 3M blue 471 3mm vinyl tape that Kev67 reccomended on another thread....

I've not long finished re-scribing a JP5 - must get around to building the thing! I use that 3m tape too, but although it is much better at going around compound curves than the old fashioned type Dymo tape, it is significantly thinner & more flexible (which probably goes without saying!) so it is much easier for the scriber to push into it & make wandering lines! Use with care!! If I can't get the Dymo tape to stick & have to use the 3M, I often put it on in double (or even triple!) thickness to give the scriber more of an edge to run against. But I've got old & shaky hands, you'll probably be like Kev & have no problems! If you should want to look for Dymo tape, make sure you look for the old plastic type - the new thin stuff is useless! It was still freely available on e-bay when I last got some...

[Hamden]

The masterclass begins, I have already learnt something didn't know about the seats being different in the Strikemaster to the JP

Looking forward to the next installment

Roger

[Vulcanicity]

Having glanced in with amazement on your Chipmunk thread, I can't wait to see this one progress. Great start, and good luck!

[woody37]

Steve, quicker please

Not enough progress, I'm having to do something ...well like modelling to pass the time between your updates !!!!!!

OK, Mike will be thinking....plenty of reviews to be cracking on with !!!!

[Fritag]

Oops. Progress at the moment is chracterised by its absence. Too much working and not enough modelling.

Have managed to finish modifying the second bang seat and did remember that they are 'handed' - at least to the extent that he adjustment lever is on the outboard side of each seat.

Primed em as well. Next question is whether I can do justice to em in the painting and sticking on the etch harness- and if they'll fit in the cockpit!

Started work on the Airfix 5A.

I think I mentioned at the beginning that I'd actually started it before switching to the chipmunk. At that point I only got as far as sanding off the raised panel lines and adding bits and bobs to the cockpit and improving the seats:

But that was months ago and that plan has been junked. It would have been fun but now that I've seen how fine the detail is on the CMR 3A I think the Airfix 5A would have looked a bit crude alongside it with just my plastic card and milliput home made cockpit mods.

So - the new plan is to use the Pavla Strikemaster resin detail set - and then modify it as required to be a JP 5 - and to try and squeeze in a pair of CMR seats for a consistent look with the 3A.

To begin with the coaming and the deck behind the seats have to be removed from the Airfix kit.

The Pavla insert fits well:

That was fun. A proper bit of old fashioned plastic carving. And that's it for now. At least it's something. I'm away for a long weekend break now - hope to make a proper start on the kits later next week.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Fritag

[keefr22]

Good start Steve - have a good weekend!

[milktrip]

Ditto the above.

[Miggers]

Good Lord,the way Steve and Aaron(milktrip)detail 1/72nd cockpits makes me think

I need to start and paint the inside of my cockpit glasses black or silver and stuff what's

in there!!! .

Steve,I have a nice JP5 on my flightsim with a good "virtual" cockpit,I'll do you some

screenshots if you think they'll be of use.

[Rod Blievers]

Steve - PM sent.

[feifeitim]

Hi Steve!

Great start! Glad you managed to go and see XM383 at Newark. Ironically, I believe it has the wings from XM350 which is resident at Aeroventure in Doncaster. When Newark originally bought XM383, it had had a few homes and the wings that originally came with it were from a Mk5. We managed to source most of the avionics and a correct set of wings before the late David Collins produced the masterpiece that is on show now. We had a great time with the airframe: I was able to show him where the luggage panniers were stowed, (above the engine on each side) and where the F700 was stowed, which was through the little hatch on the port side of the rear fuselage.

The radio in the aircraft now is a PTR-175 I believe: when we flew these beasts they only had ARC-52s, which were incredibly limiting - no VHF and only UHF freqs to one decimal place. Made it easier for use numb nuts studes to remember manual frequencies I guess!

[Fritag]

Hi Steve!

Great start! Glad you managed to go and see XM383 at Newark. Ironically, I believe it has the wings from XM350 which is resident at Aeroventure in Doncaster. When Newark originally bought XM383, it had had a few homes and the wings that originally came with it were from a Mk5. We managed to source most of the avionics and a correct set of wings before the late David Collins produced the masterpiece that is on show now. We had a great time with the airframe: I was able to show him where the luggage panniers were stowed, (above the engine on each side) and where the F700 was stowed, which was through the little hatch on the port side of the rear fuselage.

The radio in the aircraft now is a PTR-175 I believe: when we flew these beasts they only had ARC-52s, which were incredibly limiting - no VHF and only UHF freqs to one decimal place. Made it easier for use numb nuts studes to remember manual frequencies I guess!

Getting up close to XM383 made me want one! I tell you what - if my NPPL wasn't restricted to SEP less than 2 tonnes - I'd join a JP syndicate like a shot.

I'd completely forgotten about the lack of a VHF radio - I do however remember the student difficulty of having to change frequency and fly the aeroplane at the same time....thank heavens for 'studs'.

After a period of prolonged inactivity - I have crept forward with the 5 recently.

This is the Pavla resin set for the Strikemaster (I found this picture on the web):

It's lovely - although in my set the control columns were both broken; not a major problem. However the JP cockpit is different in several respects.

I'm not using the seats as they are wrong for a JP. I'm using the CMR seat for consistency with the 3 (see earlier post).

The tub is really nicely moulded but needs some modifications (you can see I've just discovered how to edit photos in photobucket!):

I got a bit of help when I posed a question about the rear decking on the cold war discussion page.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234945833-jet-provost-mk-5-decking-behind-the-bang-seats/?hl=provost

I still don't know whether the roll over bars/canopy jettison guide wwould have the avionics rack and box fitted in 1982/83 (when I flew the 5).

I'll attend to these mods later. I'll probably remove the moulded stuff before I glue the tub in - that way I can fill and clean up the join more easily - and then scratch a new set of roll over bars/canopy jettison guide - but I'll leave that until near the end so tha I don't damage them in handling.

The side panel inserts are nicely moulded but needed a bit of work.

Before:

After:

The idea was to make the canvas/leather side pockets look more like pockets and to give an impression of the access holes /fastenings and slot for the port side flap lever. Small stuff but easily done so probably worth the effort (Bit sad?)

Perhaps the main difference is with the instrument panel/cowl. The panel and top profile are completely different. In the JP the central instrument panel is not raised and the top of the cowl is flat in profile:

After sanding down the panel and the top profile I got this:

I'll have to make a new instrument facing - I'll use the CMR Mk 3 etched panel as a guide - the 3 and 5 panels are largely similar but with a few significant differences. I'll either use the etched panel as a template to drill some holes in a new plastic panel - or I may scan the etched panel and print a decal or maybe onto photo paper - or maybe a combination of the two.

I then needed to recreate the cowling shroud. I thought the best way would be to crash mould one.

To begin with I extended the front using some plastic card - temporarily glued to the panel with white glue - to make a mould:

Used milliput to beef up the back and make a mount:

And crash moulded a few shrouds using Bill's (Perdu) method:

Not bad when cut and cleaned up:

My first time with resin and so I probably overdid the test fitting - but I found the best thing to do was to temporarily fix the tub in place with white glue so I could get it centralised and lined up and then test fit, line up and superglue the side panels. I've thinned down the cockpit sides - both the resin inserts and the inside of the fuselage sides quite a bit to make room for the seats and make it loot a bit more refined.

My modified panel fits ok - possibly more by luck than judgment:

And the CMR seats look like they'll fit ok (this one is half way through being modified so looks a bit crude)

It's going to look nice and busy in there I think. in jet terms quite a simple cockpit - but bl**dy complicated for poor student Fritag in the early 80's......

And finally for now the crash moulded shroud looks like it will work ok - it's sitting a touch proud in this test fit but a bit of refining should sort that out.

Phew. Quite a bit of work but not much progress I'm afraid - but some at least.

Only managing half an hour here and there for modelling at the moment so painfully slow - but still a great stress reliever from work

Steve

Edited September 12, 2013 by Fritag

[perdu]

That really IS progress Steve

I do like the clofffileatherification of the side pocket parts, they look the business

(hey look chaps I got a (undeserved) credit for the moulded cowling, and it looks just right to my eye)

This resin stuff is a bit mind blowing to an old chuffer like me, wowski!

Riding along all the way

bill

[keefr22]

This resin stuff is a bit mind blowing to an old chuffer like me, wowski!

So says the man who's just scratchbuilt a Sherpa!!

Progress is looking good to me too Steve - much better than I've managed in the past few weeks!

[Sean1968]

Looks like your Chipmonk is going to have a worth mate to sit next to.