Jump to content
This site uses cookies! Learn More

This site uses cookies!

You can find a list of those cookies here: mysite.com/cookies

By continuing to use this site, you agree to allow us to store cookies on your computer. :)

dazdot

78th fs p47d eileen

Recommended Posts

hi all,

i'm building the academy p47d bubbletop marked as Eileen using standard decals but.............

academy say neural grey underneath with med green on top

just found some cutting edge decals they say

Raf dark green over sky? this would make sense as they still had RAF paint at Duxford and the P47's arrived from the states in NMF but were repainted for ground attack missions between D day and Market garden can anyone shed some light on this?

Darren

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The practice in the 78th Fighter Group:

The top color is most likely RAF Dark Green, but the underside is open to debate. Roger Freeman once said it was Sky, but later reported it as light grey. Most likely candidate was MSG.

As for why, because the USAAF still feared Luftwaffe attack, especially if units were moved to Continetal airfields. It was ground camouflage. Nothing to do with ground attack.

Edited by Steven Eisenman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so basically I now have 3 options I must admit sky doesn't sound right but who knows how aircraft were painted 69 years ago msg sounds better as I can't see sky still being used

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3? Well rule out Medium Green. It was not a color used by the USAAF for overall camouflage, and in all probability not enough to paint an entire fighter group.

So it is RAF DG and your guess on underside.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's hard to say from the pictures. But the underside was certainly a very light colour, so it could have been sky or a very light gray.

wz-s2.jpg

mx-w1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yep i saw those photos myself and came to the same conclusion............... gonna hedge my bets on this and go for a med sea grey for some reason sky just doesnt seem right.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so basically I now have 3 options I must admit sky doesn't sound right but who knows how aircraft were painted 69 years ago msg sounds better as I can't see sky still being used

Daz

i'd a search on Hyperscale Plane Talking, as there have been threads on there. IIRC there was mention in one book of a color photos of 78FG Thunderbolt, which I think showed sky was more likely.

I've not seen the color pic mentioned, but I'd like too ;)

Tbolts posted photos are very handy. Interpreting BW photos for colour is best guess.

But, Medium Sea Grey does not usually come out as 'near white' in BW pics, but Sky does.

have a look at some Spitfire and Typhoons in NW europe, and you'll see what I mean.

The above photos show a very pale underside colour.

Also, there is a famous photo of a line up of group commanders aircraft, including a 78FG P-47, which again shows a very pale underside.

I mention this as it allows more guesstimates to be made of colors used, as you have more to compare too.

HTH

T

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have that photo to me it's a bit inconclusive but I have Marty bowman book showing some bubbles at bassingborn and I have to say the grey on them looks just to light

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Daz

i'd a search on Hyperscale Plane Talking, as there have been threads on there. IIRC there was mention in one book of a color photos of 78FG Thunderbolt, which I think showed sky was more likely.

I've not seen the color pic mentioned, but I'd like too ;)

Tbolts posted photos are very handy. Interpreting BW photos for colour is best guess.

But, Medium Sea Grey does not usually come out as 'near white' in BW pics, but Sky does.

have a look at some Spitfire and Typhoons in NW europe, and you'll see what I mean.

The above photos show a very pale underside colour.

Also, there is a famous photo of a line up of group commanders aircraft, including a 78FG P-47, which again shows a very pale underside.

I mention this as it allows more guesstimates to be made of colors used, as you have more to compare too.

HTH

T

Yes there is quite a few photos that show a light underside and I agree that if it is a grey then it's not MSG but something a lot lighter. Probably the same colour that was used on this P-39, which I believe is sky. Anyway I would personally go with sky.

aat.jpg

2953977748_cd208ae24c_b.jpg

1_zpsc811acdd.jpg

mx-e.jpg

Edited by Tbolt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sky was not used on the P-39. That is a matter of contention. possibly a light grey like Sky Gray, or the DuPont Sky Type S Grey, which also is not Sky.

The other issue is the amount of Sky available to do an entire fighter group. After all, the RAF used it in limited amounts for fuselage bands and spinners.

Unless some RAF supply sargent gave the 78th FG a great deal on obsolete paint, doubt Sky. Or, maybe he did get rid of a huge supply.

Also, the color is affected by by application. It was done at a depot, not a manufacturing facility.

No certainty on this one, and no reason given why Freeman switched from the Sky in his 1997 Mighty Eigth Warpaint and Heraldry to a blue-gray descripter in his 2002 American Eagles - P-47 T'bolt units of the Eigth Air Force.

One final possibility is Ocean Grey. Oddly, under ANA the British agreed that ANA 603 Sea Gray would be accepted for both RAF Ocean Gray and FAA EDSG, the USAAF also acepted, but never implmented, its use as Neutral Gray. Soooo, based on that odd reasoning, Since ANA 613 was accepted as both USAAF OD and RAF Dark Green, why not 603 Ocean Gray for the underside?

BTW, ANA 602 Light Gray was agreed on as acceptable for MSG, IIRC.

Thus the RAF T'bolts were factory painted in ANA 613, 603 and 602. Later repainted in the SEAC.

Then again, Eileen has been modeled so often, and seen by so many, yet no one has come forth with proof positive that either Sky or MSG or OG are wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have that photo to me it's a bit inconclusive but I have Marty bowman book showing some bubbles at bassingborn and I have to say the grey on them looks just to light

I'd love to see this pic, and it might help to post this for the purposes of this discussion.

The other issue is the amount of Sky available to do an entire fighter group. After all, the RAF used it in limited amounts for fuselage bands and spinners.

Unless some RAF supply sargent gave the 78th FG a great deal on obsolete paint, doubt Sky. Or, maybe he did get rid of a huge supply.

Good point, and actually a more likely explanation, as sky was a very widely used colour until mid 1941 , just over 2 years before, and so large stocks could quite easily be available spare on an ex-RAF fighter base

One final possibility is Ocean Grey. Oddly, under ANA the British agreed that ANA 603 Sea Gray would be accepted for both RAF Ocean Gray and FAA EDSG, the USAAF also acepted, but never implmented, its use as Neutral Gray. Soooo, based on that odd reasoning, Since ANA 613 was accepted as both USAAF OD and RAF Dark Green, why not 603 Ocean Gray for the underside?

BTW, ANA 602 Light Gray was agreed on as acceptable for MSG, IIRC.

Thus the RAF T'bolts were factory painted in ANA 613, 603 and 602. Later repainted in the SEAC.

I know Ocean Grey did fade, but I would be very surprised if this was the underside colour on these planes, as it's much darker. Medium Sea grey is possible, but given the contrast between the upper and lower surfaces in so many photos i still think it's too dark.

But...well

Daz, post up that colour pic!

cheers

T

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sky was not used on the P-39. That is a matter of contention. possibly a light grey like Sky Gray, or the DuPont Sky Type S Grey, which also is not Sky.

The other issue is the amount of Sky available to do an entire fighter group. After all, the RAF used it in limited amounts for fuselage bands and spinners.

Unless some RAF supply sargent gave the 78th FG a great deal on obsolete paint, doubt Sky. Or, maybe he did get rid of a huge supply.

Also, the color is affected by by application. It was done at a depot, not a manufacturing facility.

No certainty on this one, and no reason given why Freeman switched from the Sky in his 1997 Mighty Eigth Warpaint and Heraldry to a blue-gray descripter in his 2002 American Eagles - P-47 T'bolt units of the Eigth Air Force.

One final possibility is Ocean Grey. Oddly, under ANA the British agreed that ANA 603 Sea Gray would be accepted for both RAF Ocean Gray and FAA EDSG, the USAAF also acepted, but never implmented, its use as Neutral Gray. Soooo, based on that odd reasoning, Since ANA 613 was accepted as both USAAF OD and RAF Dark Green, why not 603 Ocean Gray for the underside?

BTW, ANA 602 Light Gray was agreed on as acceptable for MSG, IIRC.

Thus the RAF T'bolts were factory painted in ANA 613, 603 and 602. Later repainted in the SEAC.

Then again, Eileen has been modeled so often, and seen by so many, yet no one has come forth with proof positive that either Sky or MSG or OG are wrong.

The RAF used sky for the underside for Spitfire until they changed to MSG in August '41, so they could have had excess sky paint available.

I don't buy ocean grey, the colour is too light for that, maybe MSG or maybe still a little bit too light?

In Freeman's "The Mighty Eighth The Color Record", on page 55, there is a picture of a 82nd's two seater, war weary P-47 and the underside colour looks like sky, though the gear door looks more like a light gray, but doesn't seem to match the underside colour so could have been a replacement.

Look at this photo. It's either sky or a very light grey. It looks very similar to sky in B&W pictures.

FD59D797B7E6460A848D0E64C648CFF6.jpg

Edited by Tbolt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd been inclined to go with the sky colour. The reason being, it is much more of a contrast than the medium sea grey.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mmm...

If they hade problems getting paint in needed quantities... ...could it be MSG blended with white?

Cheers / André

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did “Eileen” in sky:

 

DSC_5529

 

can’t remember how I came to that conclusion though....

 

i did another p47 with I “think” msg undersides and the sky certainly is more pleasing to the eye....😁

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Lawzer said:

I did “Eileen” in sky:

 

DSC_5529

 

can’t remember how I came to that conclusion though....

 

i did another p47 with I “think” msg undersides and the sky certainly is more pleasing to the eye....😁

 

 

It looks good.

What brand did you use? Humbrol 90, Xtracrylix 1007 RAF Sky?

 

Cheers / André

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just tamiya xf21.

 

Looking at the photo I can see the fuel tank is squint......oops! 🙄

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me the evidence for Sky is very convincing, which is a shame because I think it would look better in MAP Dark Green over Medium Sea Grey, and I might do mine that way when the time comes even though I think it's likely to be incorrect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A naive question: is it certain the undersides were painted at all? If the purpose was to be camouflaged while on the ground, why bother with light grey or sky undersides: the lightness on the photos fits unpainted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/18/2019 at 4:21 PM, Super Aereo said:

According to Dana Bell, lower surfaces were in Sky.

 

Yes, but what sky are mentioned? Grey, blue or the more green sky as in Humbrol 90, Xtracrylics 1007 and maybe not so greenish Tamiya XF-21...

 

http://www.planete-auto.fr/english/tamiya-color-chart.asp

 

I probably continue with bare metall aircraft's or with aircraft's like the 63rd's P-47M with NMT underside... ;)

 

Cheers / André

Edited by Andre B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here’s my 2 together:

 

33775046788_70eb00d5dd_b.jpg

 

the one on the right is the old monogram kit.  In the instructions it calls for - well nearest I had - msg.  It gave thanks to the actual pilot for his help with markings and i’m Assuming colour so went with that.

 

they look 2 totally different aircraft (well, of course they were!)...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lawzer said:

Here’s my 2 together:

 

33775046788_70eb00d5dd_b.jpg

 

the one on the right is the old monogram kit.  In the instructions it calls for - well nearest I had - msg.  It gave thanks to the actual pilot for his help with markings and i’m Assuming colour so went with that.

 

they look 2 totally different aircraft (well, of course they were!)...

 

 

Hi,

I made an similar experience when I painted an Spitfire with Humbrol Medium Sea Grey and had painted other RAF aircrafts with Tamiya AS-11 Medium Sea Grey. The Humbrol Medium Sea Grey looked rather dark...

 

My Humbrol painted Spitfire compared with my Typhoon painted with Tamiya. Both "Medium Sea Grey"... 

 

https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10648&start=40

 

Cheers / André

Edited by Andre B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Andre B said:

 

Yes, but what sky are mentioned? Grey, blue or the more green sky as in Humbrol 90, Xtracrylics 1007 and maybe not so greenish Tamiya XF-21...

 

 

Actual Sky. MAP Sky. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×