Spitfire FR XVIII colours and fin shape

[Hhhalifaxxx]

Hello:

In the Modellers' Datafile on the Griffon Spitfires there is a colour profile of a 60 Sqon. FR XVIII operating in Singapore, with those "tiger stripes" on the nose. The caption (and text elsewhere in the book) says its upper surface colours were dark green and dark earth, yet I've seen other publications interpreting the lighter shade of the camouflage as ocean grey. Can someone confirm me whether dark earth was indeed used in postwar operations in that region? Thank you.

Speaking of Mk XVIIIs, does someone have a good photo or line drawing clearly showing the outline of its fin/rudder area, and how it compares with the standard Mk XIV empennage? I'd really appreciate your help.

[Edgar]

India H.Q. issued an order, in March 1944, replacing Ocean Grey with Dark Earth, which could well have carried on post-war. The XVIII fin was identical to the XIV, but, from October 1946 (factory,) or February 1946 (by way of issued leaflets,) the rudder (on the F.R.XIV as well,) which had started off the same as the standard XIV, was replaced by a broader-chord type. From measurements that I took (of a still-attached example) at Duxford, it was 71.5" (181.6cm) tall, with a maximum chord of 33.5"-34" (86.36cm) and a horn height of 12.5" (32cm.)

Edgar

[Giorgio N]

As at some point the Spitfire XIVs in India started to retain the day fighter scheme, I would doubt that the XVIIIs would have used dark earth.

What aircraft is reproduced in the profile ?

[Giorgio N]

Ok, checked some information on the SAM Publications book on the RAF fighters camo and markings in the 1945-50 period, and there's some info about the 60 Sqn. Spitfire XVIIIs together with a couple of photos.

60 Sqn. was allocated its new spitfires at the end of the war but it took a while to have the aircrafts assembled. Pictures show aircrafts clearly in day fighter scheme with standard fighter command recognition markings (sky band and Yellow leadind edges) and wartime national markings. At some point in 1949 5 new aircrafts arrived and these can be seen wearing a different camouflage scheme in pictures. They also lack the recognition markings but have postwar national markings. There seem to have been rumours of some aircrafts having served in dark green/dark earth, and the author does not discount the possibility that these 5 aircrafts could have been in these colours. At the same time, there's no hard evidence that these 5 aircrafts carried such colours.

[Test Graham]

Dark Green and Dark Earth was mentioned as the colour scheme for Far East Griffon Spitfires postwar in an old Aeromodeller (IIRC), in the caption to a photo of several of these in a line-up. This was at a time when it was generally thought that wartime SEAC aircraft were all green and grey, so it wasn't a case of carrying over assumptions but noting something specific to these aircraft. I no longer recall whether these were Mk.XIV or Mk.XVIII but Mk.XVIII seems likelier.

[spitfire]

Just had a quick look at "Eyes for the Phoenix" by Geoffrey Thomas and in the Colour Schemes and marking section he states that "The Spitfire FR.XVIII reinforcements remained in their factory finish of dark grey and Ocean Grey with MSG under surfaces" and that some were delivered to 28 Squadron with Sky bands but this marking was painted out in service.

Cheers

Dennis

[Giorgio N]

Judging from the pictures I've seen of Far East based Spitfire XVIII, they all seem to have been delivered in day fighter scheme with sky bands. The sky bands disappeared with time and the markings were modified from the wartime ones to the postwar style.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Giorgio N

[Hhhalifaxxx]

Gentlemen:

Thanks for the information (albeit conflicting) so far. I am out of town and don't have access to the Datafile at this point, but as soon as I get home I'll transcribe what's in their text.

A special thanks to Giorgio for checking the SAM book on postwar British camouflage, as I don't have that book.

As for the different fin/rudders, would I be correct to assume the difference between the early F XIVs and late FR XIVs and FR XVIIIs would be similar to that between their homologues in regular and contraprop F21s? (I'm not sure it was in this forum, but I recall a previous discussion on fin differences in F 21s.)

[John Aero]

The FR.18 and late FR.14e fin and rudder were identical to those of the F.21 fitted with the contra props. The FR.18 drawing in the SAM Datafile shows the classic mistake of sticking an enlarged rudder on the standard Mk.14 fin. It even shows the panel line denoting the wooden block fin tip which is'nt there on the Mk.18.

Note I don't use the Roman numerals for clarity.

John

[gingerbob]

Note I don't use the Roman numerals for clarity.

So you're saying the rudder post is really LVIII?

[Tailwheel]

Hi All,

With regards to the rudder ,I have in the stash an Academy FR14e which I would like to complete as a Mk XV111. Now , Airwaves do a rudder replacement, so can anyone clarify how accurate this is ?

More confused than ever!

Dave

[John Aero]

If the rudder simply replaces the Academy rudder and the horn balance is not a scale 16" then it's wrong. On a good scale Mk.14 the fin needs to have a scale 2.5" removed from the top of the fin to fit a correct 18 broad chord rudder. The white area on my photo (which is of a large rudder FR 14e (18 type)) is the wooden fin tip of the Mk.14 which is removable. The horn balance of the 18 rudder is deeper. Too many drawings show an uncorrected Mk.14 fin with a taller/broader rudder perched on it.

The rudder post height of all previous Mks remained standard but the Mk.14 required that the fin be given more area this was achieved by extending the fin with a new metal leading edge and making it higher by fitting a shaped wooden fin cap. An entirely new rudder was fitted. Later more rudder area was required and an even broader rudder was fitted which in turn required a bigger horn balance. The simplest way was to remove the wooden fin extension to allow a deeper horn to be accomodated. These big rudders all have a Z section trim tab. The blue outline is a 14 the red an 18. The panel is a 12" square for scale.

John

[Tailwheel]

Thanks John ,This is obviously one of those topics more complicated than most of us thought

Dave

[Edgar]

It's even more complicated than you thought; on the first XIVs, the fin top was wooden (whether this was made easily removable, in anticipation of the bigger rudder, or anticipating the need for a deeper horn for contra-prop aircraft, isn't known,) but was replaced by a metal part, from January 1945.

Edgar

[gingerbob]

The metal part was still separate? Otherwise there'd have to be (I would think) a mod to "chop" the fin to allow fitting of the larger rudder. Yep, complicated. By the way, I do think that it was there to accommodate the larger rudder FOR the contra, since that was anticipated for the Griffon (2-stage) Spit and/or Seafire. But there's still more to learn...

bob

[Nick Millman]

On the subject of post-war FE Spit colours - and fwiw - this was apparently a period of considerable flux. J D McHard who served as a photographer in Air Command Far East (ACFE) and later Far East Air Force (FEAF) between 1948 and 1950 described post-war Spitfire colours from first hand observations in a useful article for Scale Models magazine in February 1970 illustrated with his own photographs. McHard was a prolific flying scale modeller who designed his own flying models and was a member of the RAFMAA

According to him the 60 Sqn '18 FR' aircraft seen at Sembawang were "grey and green camouflaged" with the black and yellow 'Tiger Stripes' on the nose. Prop spinners were black. A photograph of 'TP2** in the article shows it with the nose stripes, large underwing serials and a Sky rear fuselage band carrying practice rockets with white-painted concrete heads.

Later he served at Kai Tak and described 28 Sqn receiving Spit 18 replacements from various sources:-

"Every new arrival seemed to present some new colouring and marking permutation of big roundels - small roundels, broad white rings, narrow white rings; outer yellow rings - no yellow outer rings; green and grey camouflage - brown and green camouflage; the variety was endless!"

Because of the shortage of dope, skill and time to repaint all the aircraft uniformly the decision was taken to strip them of paint. The national insignia was masked out resulting in the retention of the different styles and the duration of this process resulted in some aircraft, e.g. 'C' being flown with natural metal fuselage and camouflaged wings. Another photograph in the article shows camouflaged 'F' with black and white Korean war stripes painted over the serials and partially stropped lower cowling panels in natural metal. One completely stripped 18 FR was TP378 with code 'R' and yellow outlined fuselage roundels with narrow white ring (upper wing roundel also has narrow white ring). The same photo also shows 'C' and 'G' but the serials cannot be made out. 'C' has roundels with broad white rings on fuselage and wings. Code letters were white on camouflaged machines and replaced in black paint on the stripped aircraft. The camouflaged aircraft carried the 28 Squadron Pegasus and Fasces insignia above the fin flash but this does not appear to have been replaced on the stripped aircraft.

The CO Sqn Ldr Yule maintained "in immaculate condition" an aircraft camouflaged in dark green and dark earth with a silver painted and black shadowed fuselage code 'A'. An accompanying photograph suggests this aircraft also had a white or Sky fuselage band but no squadron insignia on the fin. Spinners were quartered in flight colours of red and white and blue and white.

J D McHard died in 2004 and one wonders what happened to his collection of 28 and 60 Sqn Spitfire photos taken in Singapore and Hong Kong. Even reproduced to small size and with the printing limitations of the time in Scale Models they are impressive so the originals must be superb.

Nick

[Håkan]

I posted the exact same question on The Spitfire Site a while back. The aircraft in the profile is TP207, coded "white B". Stated as being in Malaysia 1946, from 60 Sqn. Black spinner, and a Sky band around the rear fuselage which seems odd combined with brown and green camouflage.

Håkan

Edited August 2, 2013 by Håkan

[28ZComeback]

My apologies if this has been asked and answered but is the new Airfix 1/48 Spitfire Mk XIV a good candidate for a Spitfire Mk. XVIII conversion? I know the rudder needs to come off the Mk.22. Any other notable differences?? Many thanks  

[Troy Smith]

50 minutes ago, 28ZComeback said:

My apologies if this has been asked and answered but is the new Airfix 1/48 Spitfire Mk XIV a good candidate for a Spitfire Mk. XVIII conversion?

yes, it is, and yes, it has been discussed here in several threads.

Quote

 

I know the rudder needs to come off the Mk.22.

No.  The Mk.22 (apart from some very early ones)  had a new tail unit.   The relevant rudder for the 18 is in the new kit BTW

Quote

 

Any other notable differences?? Many thanks  

some wing panelling,  under fuselage camera ports.  

 

see here

scroll down. check the links

HTH