RAF Lancaster Records?

[IanW]

Hi,

I hope I have posted this in the right place. I am trying to research further the history of a Lancaster flown by 75 (NZ) Squadron in 1944-45, serial NE181, JN-M, "The Captain's Fancy".

I am familiar with Sqn ORBs and Form 541s, but believe there would be an individual record maintained for each aircraft? Would be very grateful if anyone could let me know the title of any such forms, as I am trying to determine when NE181 came on Sqn, left, etc. I have harvested much useful info from the internet, but would like to be able to access the original source material if possible.

Thanks in adavance for any help,

Ian

[brewerjerry]

Hi

aircraft movement cards are held by RAF musuem at Hendon, they should be able to provide a photocopy of the card, if missing try the AHB below, they had the originals.

If the aircraft was in a non operational crash, try the RAF air historical branch 2, for the accident record card

they used to be at new scotland yard I think

Jerry

[Vicarage Vee]

Nothing really to add to Jerry's excellent advice. DoRIS is the department at Hendon that you want, and worth a visit if you are able, the staff are very, very helpful and there is a mine of information there. If the movement card (Form 78) indicates any accidents and time away for repair then there may be an accident card too (Form 1180) which DoRIS have microfilm (or are they microfische? I forget) of, occasionally these make interesting reading and cross referencing the station records gives further information.

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/default/archive-collection/aircraft-records.aspx

All the best with the search.

[Edgar]

The movement card (or copy) probably exists, but some authors seem to have misread it. From what I can find it arrived with 75 Sqn. in May 1944, carried out 101 operations, was transferred to 514 Sqn. in July 1945, then to 5 M.U. It was earmarked to go to New Zealand, but was scrapped in September 1947. There's a photo of the nose art in "Bomber Squadrons of the RAF and their aircraft," by Philip Moyes.

Edgar

[IanW]

Hey, thanks for the responses guys!

Edgar, your information is pretty much what I have found too - probably the same references? NE181's last operation recorded in the ORBs is 2/3 Feb 45 and a pilot I met said he flew her off-station to Waterbeach 17 Feb.

However... other crew members are adamant that they flew her for her 104th op (and the last of 75 Sqns for the war) 24 April 45... they were well-aware of her 100+ op record and have NE181 recorded in their log books... yet the ORBs have this listed as another JN-M, RF129. (RF129 appears in the ORBs from16 Feb 45.)

But a photo of this crew before the mission in front of NE181 show only the 2/3 Feb tally of 101 operations on the nose... how likely is it that suddenly the ground-crew stopped keeping track of her operational tally?

And a few other questions: is it possible NE181 was just refitted (or similar) at Waterbeach and then later returned to 75 Sqn at Mepal, not sent to 514 Sqn? This would mean two JN-Ms on Sqn, however..

If there were two JN-Ms, s it likely that the ORB-keeper just assumed that any JN-M flown would be the new RF129 and recorded it thus?

And just what constituted a 'countable' operation? I note that NE181 returned from an op that was called off 17 Jul 44 after airborne for an hour or so - am assuming this didn't count?

Cheers again for all your help,

Ian

[Edgar]

Now, here's an interesting anomaly; in "Avro Lancaster, the definitive record," by Harry Holmes, in 75 Squadron's listing, NE181 is shown twice. As a member of C Flight, it's JN-M, but it's also shown as a member of the Squadron, with no Flight letter, coded AA-M.

75 Squadron must have had a heck of a complement of aircraft, since the un-numbered "Flight" (?) goes from AA-A to AA-Y, with over 50 airframes used, and C Flight goes from JN-B to JN-Z, with another 32 airframes.

Edgar

P.S. NE181 wasn't unique in this; also appearing twice are HK600 (JN-K & AA-K) and PB132 (JN-X, AA-X & AA-T.) The individual letter appears to have been retained after the switch.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Edgar

[Vicarage Vee]

I believe that what constituted a mission was that it wasn't called off "NOET" (not over enemy territory) so, for example a daylight raid where the master bomber couldn't see the target for smoke and thus aborted would count to the tally, recall over England or over coastal parts of the North Sea wouldn't.

Others may be able to refine that with a more 'official' designation, the marking of mission tallies of course may be open to abit of artistic licence....