lancaster interior colour

[jaffa]

hi guys im about to start my revell lanc kit (i know its bad) im building it out of the box to see how i get on after a 35 year break

is the correct interior colour for a 1945 machine the interior green or black?

also i notice that of the 2 options a b.mk111 or b.mk1 there are different pilots seats can anybody tell me which one is for which version?

[Edgar]

We always understood that the front section was black, while the middle and aft sections (from the mainspar aft) were green. Don't know about the seat; have they done one with the armour up, and one down?

Edgar

Edited June 27, 2013 by Edgar

[sloegin57]

We always understood that the front section was black, while the middle and aft sections (from the mainspar aft) were green. Don't know about the seat; have they done one with the armour up, and one down?

Edgar

Matt Black as Edgar says which, together with the standard dual system of cockpit lighting, reduced the effect on the pilots night vision but enabled him to read his instruments clearly and at the same time see objects outside of the aircraft. It also reduced the risk of detection by hostile aircraft.

Dennis

[elger]

is there any evidence that some earlier Lancasters may have had completely green interiors?

[jaffa]

the seats look different dont think its the amrour up or down.

looks like all black interior then guys thankyou..

[sloegin57]

is there any evidence that some earlier Lancasters may have had completely green interiors?

It is more than possible that some, if not all, of the first 43 Lancasters produced, having been laid down as Manchesters, had all-green interiors. This would have been dependant on how much of the equipment, some instrument panels, electrical wiring etc., had been installed when the decision was taken to complete them as Lancasters. The dual system of cockpit lighting, which also included Matt Black crew station positions, was also introduced around the same time as the Lancaster but there is some doubt in my mind as to whether or not the first aircraft had it.

Dennis

[Troy Smith]

is there any evidence that some earlier Lancasters may have had completely green interiors?

Yes. And probably later.

the Nose of F-Freddie at the IWM is essentially as it was in service, and it's interior grey green, this thread on the use of grenn leather cloth is worth a read, as it has links to previous threads on this.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933074-colour-of-leather-things-in-aircraft-cockpits-raf/

but here's the F-Freddie nose section. Not black.

careful study of Lanc photo also shows turret interiors in another colours apart from black.

thread here

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933399-turret-interior-colours-for-dambuster-lancs/

Later machines certainly were black though.

note this post from Nick Millman

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933399-turret-interior-colours-for-dambuster-lancs/#entry1221911

Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:34 PM

FWIW the A.V.Roe Co Ltd camouflage drawing Z1723 of 31/3/41 specifies only that 'the interior of the bomb compartment, undercarriage compartment including doors and interior of wing flaps are to be painted Night'.

As mentioned above the fuselage interior was green on early Lancs and then Night later on and this probably applied to turrets too.

HTH

T

[sloegin57]

Yes. And probably later.

the Nose of F-Freddie at the IWM is essentially as it was in service, and it's interior grey green, this thread on the use of grenn leather cloth is worth a read, as it has links to previous threads on this.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933074-colour-of-leather-things-in-aircraft-cockpits-raf/

note this post from Nick Millman

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933399-turret-interior-colours-for-dambuster-lancs/#entry1221911

HTH

T

I agree with Troys comments but may I just add that F-Freddie's bomb-aimers compartment forward of the main instrument panel is Matt Black. I also recall reading somewhere that Lancasters built by Metropoliton-Vickers and also possibly by the Austin Group were internally completely finished in Interior Grey-Green at some stage during the war.

The drawing date referenced by Nick Millman is interesting in that it's around the date that Manchester production was ending and Lancaster production beginning to flow.

I wish you luck with the Revell Lanc Jaffa. I cannibalised mine. The fuselage and canopy going to an old Airfix kit and the rest in a box marked "Lincolnian - to Do"

Dennis

PS - Caveat. I know from personal experience that what it says on an official document to do ain't always done the way it says to do it.

[jaffa]

thanks guys like i say its been built just to see if i can still do it after a long break ill be sure to put some pics in the relevant sections...

so you guys can either tell me yes it looks good carry on or oh god no give up....

[Danny]

Shame you've already built it Jaffa.

I was able to suggest unplanted! The fuselage sections of PD259 at Waddington are substantially silver on the insides.

Danny

[Spitfires Forever]

Being an earlier Lanc, was S for sugar RAF interior green or black? And were the windows of the upper fuselage painted over or not?

Cheers

[sloegin57]

Being an earlier Lanc, was S for sugar RAF interior green or black? And were the windows of the upper fuselage painted over or not?

Cheers

Two questions, one of which I can speculate on (which I do not like doing at all) and the other I cannot answer.

R5868 was part of the first batch built by Metropoliton-Vickers and was part of the batch delivered between January and September 1942. I wrote in Post 8 that, "I also recall reading somewhere that Lancasters built by Metropoliton-Vickers and also possibly by the Austin Group were internally completely finished in Interior Grey-Green at some stage during the war." The dual system of cockpit lighting was introduced around that time which also included Matt Black crew positions. R5868 was towards the beginning of that run and as contracts also include such mundane items such as paint, both internal and external, and are not normally subject to change excepting in exceptional circumstances, in my opinion she would have been finished, INITIALLY in Interior Green throughout excepting for the bomb-aimers position and the area forward of the pilots instrument panel.

Most of the aircraft's Service was with 83 Sqdn. After her 68th operation she was transferred to 467(RAAF) Sqdn. After her 78th operation she under went a Major Servicing ( a miracle in itself !). It is possible that during this period of some 15 days, that the interior was painted Matt Black, at least in the crew compartments. Then again, it is also possible that those areas were so done whilst on 83 Sqdn during the "Moon Periods" when Ops were at their lowest especially as, after her 17th operation, she was mainly employed on Pathfinder duties.

Regarding the fuselage windows. I do not know. Possibly they were for a time, possibly not.

As I said at the beginning, the above is speculation which I do not like doing so please treat it with a cruet full of salt - and then a second helping.

Dennis.

Note:- The information regarding Units served with, Operations and the Major Servicing have been extracted from Frank Masons "The Avro Lancaster" Appendix D, Page 418

Edited for spelling.

Edited June 29, 2013 by sloegin57

[Spitfires Forever]

Two questions, one of which I can speculate on (which I do not like doing at all) and the other I cannot answer.

R5868 was part of the first batch built by Metropoliton-Vickers and was part of the batch delivered between January and September 1942. I wrote in Post 8 that, "I also recall reading somewhere that Lancasters built by Metropoliton-Vickers and also possibly by the Austin Group were internally completely finished in Interior Grey-Green at some stage during the war." The dual system of cockpit lighting was introduced around that time which also included Matt Black crew positions. R5868 was towards the beginning of that run and as contracts also include such mundane items such as paint, both internal and external, and are not normally subject to change excepting in exceptional circumstances, in my opinion she would have been finished, INITIALLY in Interior Green throughout excepting for the bomb-aimers position and the area forward of the pilots instrument panel.

Most of the aircraft's Service was with 83 Sqdn. After her 68th operation she was transferred to 467(RAAF) Sqdn. After her 78th operation she under went a Major Servicing ( a miracle in itself !). It is possible that during this period of some 15 days, that the interior was painted Matt Black, at least in the crew compartments. Then again, it is also possible that those areas were so done whilst on 83 Sqdn during the "Moon Periods" when Ops were at their lowest especially as, after her 17th operation, she was mainly employed on Pathfinder duties.

Regarding the fuselage windows. I do not know. Possibly they were for a time, possibly not.

As I said at the beginning, the above is speculation which I do not like doing so please treat it with a cruet full of salt - and then a second helping.

Dennis.

Note:- The information regarding Units served with, Operations and the Major Servicing have been extracted from Frank Masons "The Avro Lancaster" Appendix D, Page 418

Edited for spelling.

Thanks, the current aircraft is shown in pictures having the RAF interior green, and additionally it has the "tooth pick" prop blades, and the smaller bombardiers bubble as opposed to the bigger version used on later models, so I can perhaps assume (safely?) that is what she looked like from the factory? I have the Tamiya Lanc and will build it as it would have been seen in 1942/43 before any retrofitting/maintenance. Now, the fuselage windows, that is the question. I understand from reading the previous threads that some Lancs had windows sprayed over, others did not. I don't know if the windows were sprayed as per factory policy or MAP orders, or a tactical necessity. I guess I am,overcolicating the issue but I do like to be fairly accurate. Actually don't really understand the reason for all those windows anyway, unless it was for natural lighting during daytime operations. Which begs the question, was it in use before the switch to night time operations? Many questions obviously. I just picked up Leo McKinstry's book on the Lanc, his Spitfire book was superb, perhaps I might pick up some additional information there.

Cheers

[sloegin57]

Thanks, the current aircraft is shown in pictures having the RAF interior green, and additionally it has the "tooth pick" prop blades, and the smaller bombardiers bubble as opposed to the bigger version used on later models, so I can perhaps assume (safely?) that is what she looked like from the factory? I have the Tamiya Lanc and will build it as it would have been seen in 1942/43 before any retrofitting/maintenance. Now, the fuselage windows, that is the question. I understand from reading the previous threads that some Lancs had windows sprayed over, others did not. I don't know if the windows were sprayed as per factory policy or MAP orders, or a tactical necessity. I guess I am,overcolicating the issue but I do like to be fairly accurate. Actually don't really understand the reason for all those windows anyway, unless it was for natural lighting during daytime operations. Which begs the question, was it in use before the switch to night time operations? Many questions obviously. I just picked up Leo McKinstry's book on the Lanc, his Spitfire book was superb, perhaps I might pick up some additional information there.

Cheers

I believe that that aircraft had been "overhauled" prior to going on display in the museum so may, repeat may, have had the interior colours re-done. Others better qualified than me may know.

Regarding the windows. These were a left-over from the Manchester days when the specification called for the aircraft to have a secondary transport role. It took, I think, until the Mk.VII to delete them.

If I were building her, in view of the fact that she has Interior Green inside now, I would be tempted to do her as such but with the bomb-aimers position forward of the pilots instrument panel Matt Black. The windows I would leave transparent as she probably came off the line like that. Overpainting was, I understand, done at Unit level.

Dennis

Edited June 29, 2013 by sloegin57

[jaffa]

right the one im going to build is a B.MK.111 built at the yeadon factory and delivered to 100 sqd in sept 1944

so im presuming she would of being all black interior ive searched for some pics but cant find any showing the interior has anybody got a pic or two that will confirm all black interior or black to the main spar and green from there to the tail??

[elger]

Although it's a poor quality image of a burned aircraft, it has always struck me that the interior of the bomb aimers compartment of this wreck seems rather light compared to the black (night) exterior. Could it be that this aircraft, W4308 lost in January 1943, built by A V Roe had an all green interior?

Elger

[nicholas mayhew]

Do we know for sure that the F for Freddie cockpit section is in original spec, and hasn't been repainted at all?

Just worth confirming that?

[Troy Smith]

Do we know for sure that the F for Freddie cockpit section is in original spec, and hasn't been repainted at all?

Just worth confirming that?

Hmm, it's what the IPMS site says, where the photos are from.

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/1998/01/stuff_eng_detail_lancaster.htm

I believe it was an early exhibit at the IWM, and is displayed 'as was' when taken from service.

It does not look repainted here.

Photos of the RAF musuem Huricane I shows obvious and crude repainting.

This shows worn metal.

But I've searched the IWM site to see what that says on the exhibit wth no luck. Maybe looking in the wrong place.

A quick google has not turned up any other info except the serail was the serial of the plane was DV732 , "F for Freddie" of 467 Sq.

Anyone know more? I'm sure a Lanc buff will know for sure.

The nose is now on display at Duxford, according to this

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mickb6265/8498031486/

while the IWM London has a refurbishment.

Perhaps someone can have a closer look there, or ask if they are the musuem?

cheers

T

[nicholas mayhew]

Cheers Troy

I was asking the question just so people could eliminate the obvious if you see what I mean?

Now that I think about it, I may have stepped inside that cockpit - isn't it the one you can climb up and peak inside when it was on display?

Or am I thinking of something else?

Nick

[wellsprop]

I have a picture (somewhere) that I took from the rear looking forward of the BBMF Lanc interior... I'll have a look for it. As I can recall it was all green.

Ben.

[sloegin57]

It does not look repainted here.

A quick google has not turned up any other info except the serail was the serial of the plane was DV732 , "F for Freddie" of 467 Sq.

Anyone know more? I'm sure a Lanc buff will know for sure.

cheers

T

I entirely agree with Troy, the interior of that Wellington IC does look well worn and very original. Slight lack of fabric and the geodetic stuff though !!

Sorry, couldn't resist. According to my "Big Boys Book of Serials", DV732 was a Wellington IC from a batch of 415 built by Vickers at Chester. On the other hand DV372 was from a batch of 200 Lancaster I/III's built by Metropoliton-Vickers (the third production batch built by them) and delivered from May 1943 to November 1943. It served, as a Mk.I, with 467 (RAAF) Sqdn, then with 1651 HCU before being severely damaged in an accident and SOC 4th October 1945.

But again, I entirely agree, the interior does look well worn, original and Interior Green which may bear out the contention that Metropoliton-Vickers painted the interiors of the aircraft that they built all Interior-Green except for the bomb-aimers position.

I am going to have to re-think Lancaster interior colours and try and pin down as to who did what, where and when and most importantly, why ?. I am a bit surprised that a Lancaster built at that period of the War should have an Interior Green cockpit - but it does, no denying it.

Dennis

[jaffa]

getting back to my question can anybody confirm the one im goin to build have all black interior or black to the main spar and green back to the tail??

[wellsprop]

Hey again,

I found the image I took of the BBMF Lanc. Here it is!

I hope this helps,

Ben.

[Troy Smith]

getting back to my question can anybody confirm the one im goin to build have all black interior or black to the main spar and green back to the tail??

Jaffa

I don't know if ANY Lancs were all black inside. Cockpit and inside turrets, yes, but it does not make sense to make the interior any darker!

I thought this was about the cockpit colour, which varies, possibly depending on who built them and when. For a better answer, you'd need to give a serial of the plane you wanted to build, and even then it would be 'best guess'

Even with a black cockpit, I don't know that this would go back as far as the main spar, more likely to the parts visible from outside, the navigator had a curtain.

There used to be a Lancaster site, maybe they'd know.

Nice pic of the BBMF flight plane, but this has been extensively serviced for 60+ years, so I think it will have been repainted a few times.

HTH

T

[sprue]

Having researched for a Dam Buster build a study of photographs lead me to believe that all british build Lancaster interiors were interior green while Canadian built front subsection were black. The Lancaster forum had anecdotal evidence that british built Lancasters were some times overpainted black while in service but as to how common was that practice is anyones guess.

Mike