Refence colour for Gee Bee red on R1 aircraft

[Mick_Gannon]

To all having got several books on the "golden age of racing" I have not come across any colour referenceto the red used on Gee Bee aircraft.

Williams brothers new owners state that their decal maker is using Insignia red, which to me looks too dark when compaired to the replicas that have been made, can anyone point me in the right direction to get a code for this red.

Regards

[Fastcat]

Hello Mick,

While I can't help you directly, you might find this article of some use: http://www.dmairfield.org/people/colby_to/Berryloid_color_charts.pdf

Berryloid was a popular make of dope for American aircraft, similar to Titanine over here. Their version of Insignia Red or Fokker Red looks fairly bright to me. Don't rely on colour photos to reproduce reds accurately as they saturate easily and are sensitive to light conditions. Just the time of day and angle of light can make a difference.

Have a look at any reasonably exposed picture of a red car, say a Ferrari and see how many variants of red are visible. Were the reproductions matched accurately? In a line-up of Ferrari race cars I saw, no two were the same colour, even from a similar era. You could of course contact the people who built the replicas but I'm not sure what you'd gain unless they had a good provenance for the colour they used. For instance, the replica of the Hughes Racer has a mirror finish to its metal panels whereas the original, although described as polished was much more dull.

Just my two-pennorth

Best regards

Dave

[Christopher]

I suspect they used whatever they could get their hands on as long as it was colourful enough.

[Mick_Gannon]

Dave

thank you for the reference, I have sent an email to Delmar Bengimen via his company but at present no reply, the red used in the testers 1/48 kit is close to Insignia red, the decal sheet in the Williams kit definitly brighter, the reds in the reference link are brighter reds, models that I have seen have used ,Testers Guard Red, Italian Red, Humbrol Red and Gunzo Super Italian red, I do know that in scale colour is also lighter than true colour due to the size of the model, approx 10% for 1/72 aircraft so for 1/32 0%-5% but still need a start point, yes the red colour can give off many shades, looking at the replica in sun light, in a hanger, overcast and poor weather the colour does indeed change.

Christopher, if you look at old pictures in black and white the shades of grey for the red appear to be constant on Gee Bee's and other aircraft of that period therefore my thinking is that it is a standard paint not a mixed colour.

Regards

Edited June 16, 2013 by Mick_Gannon

[Christopher]

Perhaps I should have explained myself clearer - I was not thinking that people mixed red themselves but that they bought ready mixed red paints. This would have been any commercially available bright red suitable for aluminium or fabric skinned aircraft. It may have indeed been a standard colour but I would think it was more that people accessed a single supplier; the supplier varying from state to state. Red is a notoriously difficult colour to reproduce in black and white and often looks very similar so it could be that the shades were actually different. I would suggest going with what you feel comfortable with unless you do find the exact match.

[AndyC]

I built the Amodel R1 last year and the recommended call-out was for Humbrol 19 - perfect match to their decals but I can't say that it's the right colour.

The R1 at Kermit Weeks' museum in Florida is pretty much that colour

[Mick_Gannon]

Andy

nice model, why satin finish? all of the replies/reviews so far indicate go with a brighter red which I think i will do, I could carry on searching but I don't think that a definite answer can be found, off to buy some paint.

Thanks for the replies

[VH-USB]

To all having got several books on the "golden age of racing" I have not come across any colour referenceto the red used on Gee Bee aircraft.

Williams brothers new owners state that their decal maker is using Insignia red, which to me looks too dark when compaired to the replicas that have been made, can anyone point me in the right direction to get a code for this red.

Regards

Hi Mick,

The Gee Bee R-1 and R-2 were painted with Titanine paints.

I have some old Titanine color charts from the 1930s and I can have a look and let you know what types of reds these charts contain.

I can match to the American and/or British Standard color charts, whichever you prefer.

Cheers,

Tim

[Mick_Gannon]

Tim

what a star you are, yes please, FS, Ral, B.S or Pantone reference what ever a paint maker can mix paint to, I was going to use Zero paints as they do car colour paints and are suitable for airbrushes from the bottle.

Can you advise of the following colours used on earlier Gee Bee's randolph bahama blue and tuscon cream?

my email address is [email protected]

[VH-USB]

Tim

Can you advise of the following colours used on earlier Gee Bee's randolph bahama blue and tuscon cream?

my email address is [email protected]

Hi Mick,

I will match to either FS, BS, or RAL, whichever gives the closest match.

And I do have old Randolph charts so can match their Bahama Blue and Tuscon Cream. I think Randolph is still producing these colors.

I'll do the color matching this weekend when I have some free time.

Cheers,

Tim

[Mick_Gannon]

Tim

thank you for your efforts so far.

Mick

[Radial]

Are you building the Williams bros. Gee Bee? What is your plan since the color match would be limited to the red decal shade.

[Mick_Gannon]

Radial

all of my WB kits are second hand the latest decals are by aeromaster and I am told that the decal maker is using a shade or the same colour as Insignia red, Tim has emailed me and for the year that Titanine paints made Stearman Vermillion and Fokker Red is a close match but still need a slight adjustment, the decals are more red than insignia red is so a compromise will have to be made ie red slightly brighter but note in scale colour you can go 5 % lighter and still look right, there are some pictures of an R2 replica, see this website, www.airminded.net, go to Gee Bee R and look at the pictures the red in certain lights becomes brighter and in some similar to insignia red, also if you have the testers 1/48 kit the declas are indeed close to insignia red, I don't have a specific answer to your question as to what colour I am going to use, all of the reviews or models made have near matched the decals for the red colour, I wanted to know what the true colour was, having found it it was given me 2 choices, to make it correct would mean I would have to remake the decals to match the true colour more expence, or go with a near match and except it is out, I will have Zero Paints mix the colour and get enough done to do 5-6 aircraft as when spraying you waste a lot of paint.

Mick

[Radial]

It is amazing how many different shades of red there are. I'm glad you narrowed it down to two. The big question is how to do the scallop pinstriping?

[Mick_Gannon]

Radial

to do the pinstripping is easy,time money and pataints, joking apart I will mark the fuselarge at the tips of the scallop shape then apply tracing paper to the body and mark the key points, wings are clearly defined so a trace in corel draw will sort that.

Once I have the shapes defined I can then trial fit to ensure it is close to the pictures/instructions(note R1 and R2 scallops are different on the instructions)once the white is sprayed and fully dry using the templetes make masks from any of the materials, tape, frisket paper etc when dry clean up any bleed through and any build up along the line.

At this point retaping double to produce the line could be attempted but I have little hair as it is, so water slide is the only way to go, yes expence, but a better and cleaner way to do it plus I do my own artwork, printing costs are not that bad for 1 colour, I want to do 4 aircraft as defined in the WB kits so to me it is cost effective.

At present I am waiting for 8 models to come from the US so have time to sort various artwork.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Mick_Gannon

[Radial]

So you will be printing decals of the pinstripes. Sounds like a good idea. In the past I've cut out pinstripes from Microscale trim sheet. Did not work to well as there was breakage and curves were near impossible.

I'm getting close to the painting stages of a 1/32 scratch Waco SRE, that oddly enough needs PS. Experiments with triple taping show promise( 1/64" chart pak tape between mask tape pull chart pak tape and brush paint). See photo below of 1/64" ps.

[Mick_Gannon]

Radial

better man than me, method looks good but you get the paint build up edge, by masking and painting and applying pin strip over the top(after polishing off any build up)a good result should be produced.

I have a choice, make a dedicated set for the R1/R2 as they are different shapes on the fuselage, or do a genric set that covers most of the curves, at present I make 0.3mm(0.011")pinstrip and do multiply curves on the sheet, as these are 1/64 0.0156"(0.397mm)you would need decal solution to tease them to match the tight scallop's on the wings, a dedicated set would over come this, then there is the problem do you do the scallop's individual or in one length, one length means the modeller has to ensure the paint mask is right to start with, making them separate would mean trimming each piece to each other to match and lay flat,need to go and have a good think before making a decision, have I opened a can of worms?

Edited June 25, 2013 by Mick_Gannon

[Mick_Gannon]

Update on pin strip for R1, just got the book "The real story of the Gee Bee aircraft" and it states that the pin strip for red and white aircraft was black, his main references are from the Granville family and workers, so very "dark blue" could be a red herring.

[melvyn hiscock]

Not the best view of the aeroplane as it is not a good scan. This was taken from a Flamant over France when the replica visited La Ferte Alais

Edited July 2, 2013 by melvyn hiscock

[Mick_Gannon]

Delmar flying at it's best, the "Red" in this light looks more like insignia red, I am waiting now for the kits, but will do some template tests for the decals and look at some photo etching for the model(s)

On my other post "another GeeBee Question" I think I may have a size for the 1933 wing on the R2 which started with flaps wider cord and increased wing span, if I am near correct, and it is only a guess the cord would go from 53" to near 65" and a span increase from 25ft to 27-5/28ft to get the extra 32 square ft stated in books, it looks about right it adds 14.3mm to each wing and 9.5mm to the cord, with this cord increase you would get a thicker wing which is also stated in the books.

[Caerbannog]

Hi,

concerning the pinstriping you can simply use a pencil for this. It is simple to and errors can be removed very easily. I did so on my Testors Bee Gee and after the clear coat it lost the metallic look.

Cheers,

Rene

[Caerbannog]

Hi Mick,

The Gee Bee R-1 and R-2 were painted with Titanine paints.

I have some old Titanine color charts from the 1930s and I can have a look and let you know what types of reds these charts contain.

I can match to the American and/or British Standard color charts, whichever you prefer.

Cheers,

Tim

Hi Tim,

I think I saw a similar topic somewhere else were you wrote about the Titanine colour charts - would it be possible to supply some scanns here or maybe a conversion chart from Titanine to BS/RAL/FS or such? I mean not only the reds but also the other colours. It would be quite helpful for many subjects I suppose.

René

Edit:

I searched the internet and found some interesting articles on civil aircraft colours from the golden age and the colour charts mentioned above:

http://www.seawings.co.uk/colchartgal.htm

and

http://www.dmairfield.org/people/colby_to/index.html

The later article also contains a link to a PDF of a Skyways magazine, which is full of colour chart reproductions (the magazine has no real paint chips, just printed ones and according to a review I found some colours are very close while other are not so - sadly it is not said which is close in that review...)

I suppose this is you Tim who is mentioned in the text...

Edited July 10, 2013 by Caerbannog

[Mick_Gannon]

Having looked at the paint chips and charts, the Steerman Vermillian appears in 2 charts and are different in colour along with the Fokker red, as for Tim producing a record of all Titanine colours cross referenced to other paint codes, although it would be nice you yourself made a very inportant comment you need a good graphic's card in your computor to obtain the correct visual colour and as it has been stated even in real life the sun and clouds can change a colour up and down as much as 2-3 shades plus as I have said if you apply scale colour factor to the paint than there can be a percentage increase in lightening the colour to look right i.e 10% in 1/72 scale, so I think you would need an actual paint chip to work from.

Tim sent me details of the near colour matches for the colours I want to use on my models with an extra note of what to add to get a near perfect match to the real colour, he could only do this with real paint chips I assume(could be wrong)

So I am at present waiting for my kits to come from the USA and have sorted the pin stripping issue, I will use 0.025" pin strip width, 0.005" more than the true width of 0.020" to give me a better chance to cover the colour join and do the sections separate, it will be easier to apply and it will not notice on the finished model, any thoughts as to my proposals please do comment.

[Radial]

Mick,

Really looking forward to your pinstriping method and application as I am getting ready to start paint on a scratch built Waco SRE that also has pinstriping. Do you have the book The Gee Bee Racers? It has a 3 view drawing of an R2 in it. Sadly, the drawing is small and doesn't have any dimensions but it may be useful in determining proportions and wing dimensions.

[VH-USB]

Tim sent me details of the near colour matches for the colours I want to use on my models with an extra note of what to add to get a near perfect match to the real colour, he could only do this with real paint chips I assume(could be wrong).

Hi Mick,

Yes, ALL of the many old, original aircraft paint color charts in my collection contain actual paint chips so are accurate as to matching.

As to that 'Skyways' color article mentioned above, be VERY cautious with this as not only are you viewing CMYK printed colors but more importantly, only ONE of the reproduced paint charts in that issue are actually from the era discussed (the 'Golden Age' from between-the world-wars). All the other color charts are post-WW2 with some being as recent as the late 1960s-early 1970s.

Unfortunately, no where in the article is this age difference mentioned, despite the article being written for the 'Golden Age' of aviation.

So approach with caution if using these 'Skyways' colors charts when matching to between-the-war colors.

Cheers,

Tim