TBM3 Avengers GSB finish - use of primer?

[Wez]

Standard practice in aircraft finishing is to prime bare metal prior to the application of paint.

The questions are, was this done with the GSB finished TBM's and if so what colour was used?

I've seen lots of great models where the surface finish is chipped/worn down to bare metal but ther should be evidence of primer there too e.g. top coat/primer/bare metal.

What do you know good people?

Wez

[Troy Smith]

I've seen lots of great models where the surface finish is chipped/worn down to bare metal but ther should be evidence of primer there too e.g. top coat/primer/bare metal.

Hmm, USN paint is not an area of expertise, but don't trust models, however good.

AFAIK the USN was very hot on paint chipping, and the touching up thereof, to avoid corrosion problems, and the GSB finish was very tough as well.

Look at pictures of USN planes on carriers, you don't see bare metal.

The only really worn GSB finish I can think of , with paint chipping back to bare metal, of French operated planes in Indo-China, which were being flown from land bases. Like Bearcat's.

There are probably colour photos of them floating around the net if you search.

And I'd try this searching on Hyperscale, as they have a large US membership.

If I run across any suitable links I'll edit them in

this is what I was thinking of

http://www.modelingmadness.com/review/allies/cleaver/tmc32sbd.htm

I did not “ding” the airplane to get bare metal patches. For one thing, when airplanes are at sea, the crews go over them daily to find any dings and overpaint them, because aluminum corrodes like mad in a saltwater environment, so you’re just not going to find those “dings” on naval aircraft aboard ship.

There are plenty of great large LIFE full images of USN planes in the Pacific. Which I'm not finding on searches but this comp is realy old and slow...

as an aside, I have seen bare metal patches on RN Seafires...

HTH

T

Edited June 14, 2013 by Troy Smith

[Wez]

Hmm, USN paint is not an area of expertise, but don't trust models, however good.

AFAIK the USN was very hot on paint chipping, and the touching up thereof, to avoid corrosion problems, and the GSB finish was very tough as well.

Look at pictures of USN planes on carriers, you don't see bare metal.

The only really worn GSB finish I can think of , with paint chipping back to bare metal, of French operated planes in Indo-China, which were being flown from land bases. Like Bearcat's.

There are probably colour photos of them floating around the net if you search.

And I'd try this searching on Hyperscale, as they have a large US membership.

If I run across any suitable links I'll edit them in

HTH

T

Thanks Troy,

It's actually a French one in Algeria or Tunisia (I forget which and I don't have the references to hand), that I was planning on doing. Yes I know this is strictly Cold War period but I'd thought I'd get more replies if I asked in the WW.II section, after all, the aircraft were originally built for WW.II!

I'd agree with you about ship-borne ops, any bare metal would get covered up pronto to prevent corrosion.

I work on aircraft, I see them on a daily basis and I see some pretty worn out examples. In each case, where the top-coat is worn you'll see primer, if it's really worn then you'll see bare metal but not too much of that (mostly around hand-holds, kick-steps and fasteners) and the odd often used maintenance panel. Most of the areas where groundcrew transit over it or spend any time doing some maintenance activity they actually polish the surface with their clothing (unintentionally of course).

So in the case of the Avenger, in heavily used and worn areas, I'd expect to see the blue top coat and then worn blue paint followed by primer then bare metal, the metal being in the middle of a ring of primer which itself would be surrounded by a ring of worn paint before getting to the topcoat.

I'll do as you suggest and do a search for some pictures.

Regards

Wez

Edited June 13, 2013 by Wez

[Jennings Heilig]

More than likely zinc chromate under the GSB. Regardless of what the color was, I guarantee there was primer of some sort.

[Troy Smith]

Thanks Troy,

It's actually a French one in Algeria or Tunisia (I forget which and I don't have the references to hand), that I was planning on doing. Yes I know this is strictly Cold War period but I'd thought I'd get more replies if I asked in the WW.II section, after all, the aircraft were originally built for WW.II!

I'd agree with you about ship-borne ops, any bare metal would get covered up pronto to prevent corrosion.

I work on aircraft, I see them on a daily basis and I see some pretty worn out examples. In each case, where the top-coat is worn you'll see primer, if it's really worn then you'll see bare metal but not too much of that (mostly around hand-holds, kick-steps and fasteners) and the odd often used maintenance panel. Most of the areas where groundcrew transit over it or spend any time doing some maintenance activity they actually polish the surface with their clothing (unintentionally of course).

So in the case of the Avenger, in heavily used and worn areas, I'd expect to see the blue top coat and then worn blue paint followed by primer then bare metal, the metal being in the middle of a ring of primer which itself would be surrounded by a ring of worn paint before getting to the topcoat.

I'll do as you suggest and do a search for some pictures.

Regards

Wez

HI Wez

OK, without wishing to lecture, my experience here is the better the question [or more detailed] the better the answer. If you use the 'full editor' facilty you can edit the main heading of your post, possibly 'durability of GSB paint on Avenger's post war' or, 'Avenger, primer color for GSB planes', or, well, whatever you think. I'd suggest asking on Hyperscale as well.

OK, I don't know what color the primer on the Avenger was, Jennings recommendation is a good bet.

You might want to PM Bruce Archer if he does not chime in. He know's an incredible amount about FAA Avengers, and other US types used by the FAA, but is also a font of knowledge on the planes themselves. And he's helpful too:)

Steven Eisenman is also a good chap for this kind of info as well. Both are members here.

Bear in mind Avengers were built by Grumman and Eastern, and the internal paint colors were different for each factory, so primer colors may well have been as well.

see http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/us/tc/cleavertbf.htm

The Grumman-built Avenger I had the first and second cockpits in Bronze Green, with the radioman’s compartment, the turret, and the bomb bay in Interior Green, with the cowling interior in light grey. An Eastern Aircraft-built Avenger II would have the cockpit, turret and radio compartment in overall Interior Green, with the bomb bay and cowling interior in Zinc Chromate.

I don't know which ones the French had.

I beleive Grumman used a pale grey as an internal colour on other areas than just inside the cowling, eg possibly as a general primer.

Now, regarding the Avengers, in Algeria and Tunisia, I've seen pics of French Corsairs there, and they looked faded but not scuffed, GSB is tough paint apparently.

note here http://modelingmadness.com/review/korean/cleaverf4u7.htm

The airplane had been pained four or five times in its career, more blue paint over what was already on; under the hot Mediterranean sun, the lacquer finish was baked on, becoming nearly impervious to the strongest industrial-strength paint strippers. When we finished the nine-month effort to clean the airframe, there was no corrosion anywhere; it was like it had been cocooned.

I keep quoting Tom Cleaver's builds as I enjoyed his background info and he seems to know what he's on about, plus i could find the reviews reasonably easily. If nothing else they provide one opinion as a starting point, and hopefully give you some pointrs which you may be unaware of[eg different factories different paints, this i have read other places too]

So it's quite posible there would not be wear showing, more fading and matting.

The Bearcats et al in Indochina were being worked hard, in a harsh environment.

HTH

T

[Wez]

Troy and Jennings,

Thanks for the information. The picture of the aircraft I want to model shows a modicum of wear in the usual places, some of the surfaces have suffered a bit of sand erosion but not a whole lot.

Wez

[Killingholme]

The preserved Corsair at the FAA museum was built by Goodyear not Grumman, but the preserved GSB finish has i) held up very well considering it's age- there is hardly any bare metal on the airframe; and ii) zinc chromate green primer is clearly visible in the areas of high wear- wing roots, edges of engine panels, etc.

Not knowledgeable enough to say if that was true of Avengers too. The IPMS website mentions 'Grumman gray' used on all Grumman aircraft as primer, although reading between the lines on the below website, I think this colour might have been dropped for Chromate green by the time the Hellcat was produced. These pages might be useful, but don't answer the Avenger question directly. http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/01/stuff_eng_interior_colours_us.htm

regds,

Will

Edited June 15, 2013 by Killingholme

[Wez]

The preserved Corsair at the FAA museum was built by Goodyear not Grumman, but the preserved GSB finish has i) held up very well considering it's age- there is hardly any bare metal on the airframe; and ii) zinc chromate green primer is clearly visible in the areas of high wear- wing roots, edges of engine panels, etc.

Not knowledgeable enough to say if that was true of Avengers too. The IPMS website mentions 'Grumman gray' used on all Grumman aircraft as primer, although reading between the lines on the below website, I think this colour might have been dropped for Chromate green by the time the Hellcat was produced. These pages might be useful, but don't answer the Avenger question directly. http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/01/stuff_eng_interior_colours_us.htm

regds,

Will

Will,

Thanks for the link, some useful stuff there.

I've got a b&w picture of the actual Avenger I want to do from 4F based over Algeria, it's 4F.6 in the following link http://avions-de-la-guerre-d-algerie.over-blog.com/article-grumman-tbf-tbm-avenger-52525334.html

As you can see from the photo, most of the surface finish has stood up well but there are a couple of areas - principally the cowling/fwd upper fuselage and the wing walkway adjacent to the fuselage that do show wear (particularly the walkway).

My interpretation of that is (based on experience of working on aircraft), some of those areas will be down to bare metal, principally the walkway but some of those areas will just be a bit of primer showing through. It's by no means a scruffy and ragged aircraft but it does look used. Subtlety is the key here.

Regards

Wez

[Steven Eisenman]

Algeria was rough on aircraft, and may depend on how much wear.

First, as for the Geumman Gray, it was ordered discontinued by the USN along with Salmon as a second coat primer, the USN wanted the Interior Green as standard. Then they eliminated the second coat of primer, reulting only in a single coat of primer of ZC (yellow).

Color pictures of Avengers as late as Algeria are hard to find. I have a number from a Schoo;; unit, and the aircraft are in beautiful shape.

I have couple or so color pictures of Grumman Bearcats in French service. In one, the GSB is worn and a yellow can be seen, in another the leading edge ahos bare metal.

While this is an indicator, it is not a guide.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Steven Eisenman