Do-17 Recovery

[davidelvy]

Whilst I understand the desire to have a restored Do17 in a museum, I do not think that that is a practical consideration here. I suspect that practically every component has been corroded to some degree and to restore the airframe would require a complete new skin. In which case, the historic parts would be largely out of view and what the public would see would effectively be a replica.

[vppelt68]

They have a place in Finnish aviation history too, so I´m also following this with interest and wish them good luck and plans that work :-)

Edited June 12, 2013 by vppelt68

[Filler]

The more I've thought about this since seeing the remains brought to the surface the more I am convinced that there must be better ways of spending £600'000 on military aviation heritage. There is just so little there to see that it just does nothing for me as an exhibit. It'd be better off in a Sea Life centre as a barnacle collection.

I don't know if all the money was put up against this specific project but more than anything I'd have thought spending it on a new hall at Hendon so that they could relieve some of the congestion in the existing halls would be good. That poor Vulcan with it's nose squashed into the corner.

[gunpowder17]

Precisely my thoughts. 600,000 for that?

[tonyot]

I think that the money could be better spent elsewhere, maybe on an RAF type/types or a new hall (maybe using one of the hangars from RAF Coltishall or another famous old RAF airfield which is now closed), plus I`m not keen on the idea of the new RAF Museum Battle of Britain tower at Hendon, where many of the Battle of Britain types will be hung up around a spiral staircase. The idea is to take the visitor up into the battlefield, ie the air over London! Very `arty farty' if you ask me, a bit like the Cold War Museum at Cosford which is so badly designed that girders at the entrance have to be covered in high viz tape to prevent visitors from smacking their heads into them!! Look at how rubbish the aircraft look there, all hung up or crammed together like sardines!

Hanging Hendon`s Battle of Britain collection isn`t the best way to display them if you ask me and on a personal note, as a wheelchair user it would be very hard to admire the aircraft properly if they are designed to be viewed from a staircase, not very PC if you ask me in this day and age, even if they have a lift fitted (which will probably be out of order for much of the time if it is anything like those in Hendon`s Milestones of Flight building or the IWM Manchester,....both new `arty farty' buildings too!).

I believe that the Dornier wreckage is meant to be part of a central display on the ground floor of the planned tower along with the poignant Hurricane wreckage currently on display, to act as a memorial to those who died in the Battle..

Anyway,..rant over,.....well done to everybody involved in lifting the Do 17 and I hope that the aircraft looks good after it has been tarted up,...I understand why it has been recovered, but just feel that it could have been money better spent elsewhere.

Cheers

Tony O

[Mike]

It's one of those things isn't it? I think it's great to see this type in the flesh, but others that don't think much of the Do-17 will moan about it being a waste... Can't fault their logic because that's what they like, but neither can you fault mine cos I happen to like the Flying Pencil

[Max Headroom]

I agree that the state of the wreck is very much "Oh..........is that it?". Hype seemed to suggest something more substantial. T the very least I hope that it can be measured and used for accurate plans or whatever. Just seems a shame.

Tony as for access, I'm sure that to meet legislation requirements it will be fully DDA compliant. I have to agree though, hanging them up smacks of a small boy's bedroom though I suppose space at Hendon is now at a premium given the adjacent developments over the years?

Trevor

[Filler]

I've certainly got nothing against the flying pencil Mike. It's just that I prefer any aircraft to look more or less like it did in service. But having read TonyO's post about it's future role at the base of a BoB diorama I can see the sense in displaying a genuine downed aircraft from the 'other side' along side one of our own.

But then, like has been said above, the idea of the aircraft hanging by string at jaunty angles up a staircase sounds pretty darn awful anyway.

Kind of glad that I'm not the only person who is less than impressed by that Cold War museum at Cosford. The way they have crammed the V bombers in so that you just can't actually get any real sense of shape or size and the nailing of the Canberra to the ceiling and worst of all, my favourite the Aardvark, shoved up against a wall in a very dark corner. Oh dear, I'm off ranting again.

Anyway,

[bentwaters81tfw]

Cosford are doing a fantastic job on the Hampden, and I saw the airframe at the docks when it arrived in the UK. That was over 20 years ago. Not a pretty site, but it had been on 'dry' land for decades.

Until the '17 can be assessed for condition and potential, I think it's a bit early for everyone to decide it's fate. A full restoration would be my wish, but will the airframe sustain it? I can't see a restoration in 2 years considering the 'normal' pace of events.

Do we want a 'replica', or do we want a memorial? I wonder what the Germans would do with it?

[Work In Progress]

There is no question of *restoring* the aeroplane, which given its state would result in no more than its destruction and replacement by a replica. It is unfortunate that the word is inaccurately and inappropriately being bandied about by sections of the media (and today even by a UK government press officer who should have known better).

The purpose of the recovery is the *preservation* of a historical artefact. Nothing made of light alloy emerges from 73 years of immersion in the sea in show condition, but there is the major part of an otherwise extinct aeroplane with actual Battle of Britain combat history.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Work In Progress

[vppelt68]

Now who'll show us the Do in "as lifted from the seabed"- condition in 1:72 scale? Challenge enough for all you master weatherers out there!

[Giorgio N]

Restoration or not restoration, IMHO this Do-17 is a historically important aircraft, and I believe that spending money on this would be justified by the historical importance alone. It's a true BoB veteran and the only remaining example of the type, a type that played an important part in the early years of WW2.

[Simon Cornes]

I wonder where they got the costing from? it sounds like a typical MoD price job where a tin of white paint costs £200 because the MoD want to order it from Dulux whereas we buy the same thing from B & Q for £16!

As to the airframe, well, I think that it is right to recover something with historic significance whilst we can. In a few years - or months - the option would be gone so there's no time like the present. I have to say that I'm no fan of the RAF Museum Halifax, it feels like they took the cheap option there and whilst the Yorkshire Air Museum Halibag 'isn't' really, I prefer it to the to the RAFM version! There is a lot to be said for accurate full size replicas - look at the number of airworthy Spits that start their new life as an engine firewall and then sprout fuselages and wings and become 'genuine' I am glad they do it. And who wouldn't love to see a full sized replica of a Sterling or Whitley? Maybe the Dornier will end up losing its barnacles and general grime and maybe some genuine paint will survive? I'm glad we've got it up here at Cosford for a while anyway as I haven't been to Hendon this century! Just a pity the restoration centre is open so infrequently. I think it would look good united with its engines and as many bits of canopy framework to give it more shape,and so its inverted, well so be it. No matter what happens, we're not all going to like it and please don't start me on the tower at Hendon - somebody should be shot over that idea!!

Over to the next person!!

Cheers

Simon

[Work In Progress]

An accurate replica Do.17 would be a fun thing to see and anyone who wanted to put a few million quid* into making one would enjoy my wholehearted approval, but that sort of project would not really be something that has any dependency or connection with the raising of this one, unless Dornier in a fit of despondency destroyed all their drawings at the end of the war (which I doubt).

*assuming you want it properly done, with the correct structure, and equipment, not just an empty composite cladding over a steel-tube framework, but something that looks as if it might plausibly fly like the original.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Work In Progress

[Michaelvk]

So.. It won't fly again?

[Max Headroom]

So.. It won't fly again?

Only if someone drops it.....

As for Dornier destroying plans, I think it's more a case o either being destroyed by enemy action or else carted off in crates by victorious allies to either be pored over, stored and forgotten or else being destroyed by them as worthless.

Trevor

[Mike]

Look how we treated some of our war horses - no Stirling, nearly no Halifax, no Wellesley, no... I could go on all day, I suspect if I had the knowledge, and we won!

[Max Headroom]

Look how we treated some of our war horses - no Stirling, nearly no Halifax, no Wellesley, no... I could go on all day, I suspect if I had the knowledge, and we won!

There are attempts to recreate types. A group whose name eludes me that has been set up to stitch together a Whitley. There are components available and the starting point is a bag of bits bigger than that for YAM's Hallibag when they started out, So who knows? In my days as a delegate at BAPC meetings in he 80's/90's there was a group called the Douglas Boston/Havoc Preservation Trust. Again they were acquiring parts. Ok so whilst not extinct, it's still rare and when they started, the RAFM ex Oz example was still in a steamy Antipodean swamp.

There's a large chunk of Stirling fuselage somewhere in a European collection (Belgium AFAIK).

So never say never!

Trevor

[Radleigh]

Two photos on Airplane-pictures here - http://www.airplane-pictures.net/type.php?p=5356

[Mike]

Looks like the front and rear fuselage were almost corroded in half... if they'd left it any longer, it would have been gone methinks

[wyverns4]

Managed to catch BBC Radio 4 yesterday here in exile (i.e. Africa) and in a science programme they had the professor from UCL (IIRC) who is in charge of the stabilisation of the airframe. Apparently its preservation was a sequence of unusual circumstances.

1. it was rapidly buried under the Goodwin Sands which reduced the amount of free oxygen available to start corrosion

2. The alloy the airframe was constructed from contained no copper (apparently that is unusual!, don't ask me I'm a palaeontologist)

3. As it emerged from under the Goodwin Sands it was covered by marine growth, barnacles, etc... The marine growth could grow as there was no copper, which has a known toxic effect. Which meant that again the surface was protected from free oxygen that would advance the rate of corrosion.

Also to anybody who thinks it should have been left in place, It would not have been around for much longer.

Congratulations to all involved!

Christian the Married and exiled to Africa

[AjD]

A small treat from Cosford at 11.30 last night...when a wonderfully committed team were still beavering away and showing no signs of stopping! Can't say the smell was too good but it was a real bonus that I found myself standing next to the Do 17 whilst dealing with other things last night.

Many of the components are in remarkable condition given the time they've spent submerged - indeed the oxygen bottles on board had to be discharged, having maintained their pressure...!!!

There are a few plaques already visible beneath the crust, upon which every letter can be made out as if they were new.

The propellers appeared to be in remarkably good condition too (unlike some other components), with bare metal exposed already.

Despite the obvious corrosion, so many parts seemed to have withstood the test of time well and rather than severing the bolts that held the wings and tailplane on to the fuselage the team was simply able to undo them and pull them out (bar one)! There's certainly a big job ahead to identify every part but it's a credit to German engineering that so much of the aircraft has survived.

Mike - It seems the fuselage twisted slightly during the lift rather than having corroded on the bottom. Without the divers having put a steel support in to the tail though, they reckon they would have lost it entirely.

The fuselage is upside down in these shots by the way. The wings were still outside on the low-loader and were in even better condition (in relative terms of course!).

Can't wait to see what they make of the aircraft after the three years of work ahead. What a wonderful achievement thus far! Truly amazing.

AjD

[Max Headroom]

Thanks for sharing the pix.

So, not so bad after all? I hope that they strip it back to paint and metal with the barnacles etc removed.

Trevor

[bentwaters81tfw]

Better than expected. Vorsprung Durch Technik eh?

[John B (Sc)]

" rather than severing the bolts that held the wings and tailplane on to the fuselage the team was simply able to undo them and pull them out (bar one)! "

Wow ! That is astonishing after all that time, in such a challenging environment. My hat is off to Dornier. Most impressive quality engineering.

Though perhaps I should not be too surprised. I had to do some work on my little German built aeroplane last year. After 40 years service, the mild steel torque tubes were in perfect condition, after the preservative compounds were stripped off for inspection.

Vorsprung durch... indeed.

John B