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Spitfire Mk1 Aerial Wires


dr_gn

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Guys, quick question:

On the Spitfire Mk1, when were the roundel centre to tailplane aerial wires removed? Did they replace the mast to fin wire, or...what's the story?

Thanks.

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The 'cheese cutters' from the horizontal stabs to the fuselage were the early IFF system. They were used (Edgar will correct me if I remember this wrong) until ~early 1943, and were replaced by the rod type antenna under the right wing. The wire from the vertical fin to the fuselage was the early MF communications antenna, replaced by a VHF comm antenna contained within the mast itself (and just a whip on some a/c). The two had nothing to do with each other.

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A fair bit of the trouble stems from not knowing exactly how (or even if) the early I.F.F. sets/aerials were installed. Hurricanes and Gladiators had the aerials installed mainly inside the fuselages, only emerging just in front of the tailplanes' leading edges (therefore making them extremely difficult to see.) It's doubtful, due to the metal fuselage, that the Spitfire's installation was the same, but, so far, I haven't found any illustrations to prove it one way or the other.
Everyone talks of the "TR.9" radio, but there were, in fact two (on the Spitfire, at least,) and the TR.9D replaced the TR.9B 22-6-40 (this might have been the reason for the "pronged" mast, but that remains an unknown - there is no mention of a new aerial mast in the instructions.)
In April 1940, in a bomber Squadron, it was found that the Mk.I I.F.F. caused interference (known as "generator noise") on the TR.9D, and Farnborough were given the job of sorting it out; again, the results haven't, yet, come to light.
A modification, to "Introduce R.3002 w/t equipment" was not embodied, in the factory, until 28-12-40, with leaflets being issued slightly earlier. Included in the mod (which allowed 25 hours for the work) were instructions on fitting insulators into the fuselage, to accept the aerials, which gives a fairly clear hint that they hadn't been fitted earlier. Also included are a firing switch shield, and firing switches, which indicates that the destruction box/switches were not fitted prior to this date.
The R.3002 was the 12v I.F.F. Mk.II, while the R.3000 was the 12v I.F.F. Mk.I (24v systems were R.3003 & R.3001 respectively.)
As there appears to be no mention of the R.3000 being fitted to the Spitfire, it looks as if the I.F.F. Mk.I was not fitted, possibly due to the interference with the HF radio, with the Mk.II being compatible, and fitted together, with the VHF radio, but that remains pure speculation, so please don't quote me.

Edgar

Edited by Edgar
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  • 6 years later...

On this subject, (unless I'm missing something & apologies if I have), I'm building the Tamiya 1/48 Spitfire mk1. The instructions clearly show fuselage/tailplane antenna wires. Reading this thread, I'm now wondering if I shouldn't bother with them. What do you reckon on this guys? Many thanks in advance. 

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2 minutes ago, Freecloud said:

On this subject, (unless I'm missing something & apologies if I have), I'm building the Tamiya 1/48 Spitfire mk1. The instructions clearly show fuselage/tailplane antenna wires. Reading this thread, I'm now wondering if I shouldn't bother with them. What do you reckon on this guys? Many thanks in advance. 

 

What time period are you depicting?  For most Spitfires in the Battle of Britain, they should not be there, and the mounting points on the fuselage shouldn't either.  They weren't widely fitted until late in the BoB period, and were by no means common even then.  

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1 minute ago, NorthBayKid said:

 

What time period are you depicting?  For most Spitfires in the Battle of Britain, they should not be there, and the mounting points on the fuselage shouldn't either.  They weren't widely fitted until late in the BoB period, and were by no means common even then.  

Many thanks for your very prompt reply. The choice I made from the kit was the BoB 1940 design. 

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If you can't see them on a photo of the aircraft you are modelling (look for a small black spot on the fuselage roundel) then leave them off.

 

Edgar did some magnificent research, but he tended to rely upon the dates quoted in Supermarine's list of modifications, which you would expect to be entirely reliable but in a number of cases appear to post-date the actual introduction into service.  So with this small qualification, I would expect them not to be on your example.

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According to the late Edgar Brooks the wires were kept taut using bungees in the fuselage, preventing ground crew from garroting themselves.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

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41 minutes ago, cocky05d said:

On the real Aircraft ,they seem a bit dangerous to the ground crew ,they could forget to duck under them and get a nasty cut ,as well as tearing them off the side of the plane .

 

I would have expected them to have been insulated, all the wire based antenna systems I've worked on (various sorts of HF radio), used copper wire covered with insulation, this would stop it being like a knife.

15 minutes ago, spitfire said:

According to the late Edgar Brooks the wires were kept taut using bungees in the fuselage, preventing ground crew from garroting themselves.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

 

Quite a simple way of maintaining tension.  I would have expected a shear pin to be in there somewhere, it would allow a snagged wire to snap rather than cuasing greater damage to the aircraft.  Again, this is quite common in wire based HF systems and I don't see any reason why the IFF would be any different.

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On 11/20/2019 at 3:19 PM, Freecloud said:

On this subject, (unless I'm missing something & apologies if I have), I'm building the Tamiya 1/48 Spitfire mk1. The instructions clearly show fuselage/tailplane antenna wires. Reading this thread, I'm now wondering if I shouldn't bother with them. What do you reckon on this guys? Many thanks in advance. 

 

Whether a BoB Spitfire carried the antenna wire from the mast to tailplane was completely down to which radio set it had installed. The RAF had been very keen to equip all their squadrons with VHF RTs after the Battle of France and before the Luftwaffe started to attack Britain in earnest. However supply problems and delays and also losses during the fighting especially over Dunkirk forced the AM to order the reinstallation of the TR.9D HF radio sets until sufficient stocks and spares for the TR.1133 VHF systems became available.

 

A Spitfire fitted with the TR.9D set has the antenna wire. That with the newer TR.1133 does not.

 

If you tell me which squadron you wish to model and which date/timeframe I can tell you whether that squadron had upgraded to the new VHF sets or not.

 

HTH,

 

Tim

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On 20/11/2019 at 14:27, Graham Boak said:

Edgar did some magnificent research, but he tended to rely upon the dates quoted in Supermarine's list of modifications, which you would expect to be entirely reliable but in a number of cases appear to post-date the actual introduction into service. 

For all of his great Spitfire knowledge which he freely shared, Edgar had a bit of a blind spot when it came to actual in-service practices.

 

Edgar was a remarkable one-man Spitfire resource.

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On 11/20/2019 at 3:19 PM, Freecloud said:

On this subject, (unless I'm missing something & apologies if I have), I'm building the Tamiya 1/48 Spitfire mk1. The instructions clearly show fuselage/tailplane antenna wires. Reading this thread, I'm now wondering if I shouldn't bother with them. What do you reckon on this guys? Many thanks in advance. 

 

Just realised that you might also be referring to the IFF antennae as well. These were the antennae wires running from the fuselage sides behind the cockpit to the tailplane and were dedicated to the Identification Friend or Foe system which freed up radio channels which were used by the earlier Pipsqueak system.

 

The IFF only really started to be installed towards the end of the BoB and at this time was almost always fitted either at the same time with TR.1133 set, or in a machine already carrying the new system.

 

Once again, HTH! 

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Terminology confusion here.  Yes, the IFF wires.  The aerial wires run from a mast to the fin, not to the tailplane, which in British usage means the horizontal tail surface, as opposed to the mainplane or wing.  The vertical tail is not referred to as such but as fixed fin and movable rudder.

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Note for modellers according to my Edgar notes the aerial wires on the Spitfire were stainless steel, I asked the question as previously I had painted mine either black or grey and was just finishing a Hurricane..

Cheers

 

Dennis

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  • 4 years later...

I am building an Eduard 1:48 Spitfire Mk1a X4593 which crashed on 22 Nov 1940. The question I have is regarding antennae fitted - did it have the rod behind the cockpit? Did a wire run from this to the tailplane? Were there IFF wires from tail fins to fuselage? Many thanks

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