Max Headroom Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 If talking ships in space wotabout the Titanic from the Dr Who Christmas special a few years ago? Ttevor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in Lincs Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 So, Abrams - Star Trek with weathering? Seems to be Marmite flavoured. Love the Carry on Trekking pictures. Just got hold of Barbarella (The DVD, dirty Boy!) Not seen it in Decades. While I loved the whole Firefly/Serenity universe, That 'Federation'? ship The Dortmunder? Skyscrapers in space, what was that all about? And, The engine in Serenity? Not fit to churn butter, Looked really silly. Kayleigh on the other hand.... I'd forgotten the ship in Saturn V as well, As bad as the rest of the film. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzo the Magnificent Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Nimoy didn't think Quinto was caricaturing Spock. Of course not. Nimoy sold out and became Abrams' New BFF when he got a guest starring role in Fringe. Total rejection of Trek canon? How does "Enterprise" fit into this, or indeed all the other little modifications and oopsies that the Trek writers on TOS, TNG, DS9 and STV managed over the years? Enterprise actually went a long way to clearing up a lot of the little inconsistencies in Trek - especially the bumpy-headed Klingons thing. TOS I seem to remember still had the death penalty Yes. But only after due process of law. Spock summarily and arbitrarily marooning someone like that is not due process. But my big problem with the whole reboot / alternate timeline business is that established canon makes it clear that there were at least two (and probably four) agencies who would have prevented the destruction of Vulcan and the alteration of the timeline: the Federation in the near future (Captain Braxton); the successor to the Federation in the far future (Crewman Daniels); Gary Seven; even Q would probably have had a go to stop Nero from messing up his fun with Picard. That's the sort of canon that Abrams ignored and that's why his version is no longer real Trek. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thx6667 Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 (edited) But my big problem with the whole reboot / alternate timeline business is that established canon makes it clear that there were at least two (and probably four) agencies who would have prevented the destruction of Vulcan and the alteration of the timeline: the Federation in the near future (Captain Braxton); the successor to the Federation in the far future (Crewman Daniels); Gary Seven; even Q would probably have had a go to stop Nero from messing up his fun with Picard. That's the sort of canon that Abrams ignored and that's why his version is no longer real Trek. To which I say thanks god for that! You've just listed all the stuff that was constipating the whole Trek franchise because one slight deviation from "canon" (which in itself is inconsistent and often not logical - ha!) and the writers are living in fear of fan forums treating all this like its real. Its funny how so many things that happened in ST:E were never mentioned or referenced in TOS, TOS movies, TNG, DS9 and STV. The problem with canon is that its pretty much a fan conceit and means damn all outside of the immediate circle of Trekkies, which I think explains why the franchise went down the toilet because for everyone else because it had just become impenetrable tedium frightened of its own shadow. Long story short its a franchise that plays loose with science, time travel, alternative realities and its own history and canon as and when it suits, with people (mostly the fan community) desperate to paper over the cracks and make out its somehow all hangs together as if it had all really happened! Its a TV series that has somehow taken on a quasi-religious cult-like status and is treated way too serious. If anything I'd say JJ Trek aligns itself more with TOS and a semi-grounded sci-fi universe than any of the subsequent shows. Anyway, worst spaceships - I think the Enterprise E gets a big vote here, hideous, Edited May 13, 2013 by Jonathan Mock 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetboy Posted May 13, 2013 Author Share Posted May 13, 2013 enjoying the thread,btw whats canon? cheers Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyro-manic Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 The established backstory/rules etc. defined as "official" (usually that means created by the original creator), as opposed to "fan-made" or other unofficial material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 enjoying the thread,btw whats canon? cheers Don A big gun!!! Spence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzo the Magnificent Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 To which I say thanks god for that! You've just listed all the stuff that was constipating the whole Trek franchise because one slight deviation from "canon" (which in itself is inconsistent and often not logical - ha!) and the writers are living in fear of fan forums treating all this like its real. "Like its real"?!?!?!? How very dare you, sirrah! Okay. I think it would be prudent at this point to reiterate Enzo's Laws of Television. Study them carefully and reflect on their truth, their beauty and their elegance. You may also come to realise that, like Asimov's Laws of Robotics and Einstein's Laws of General Relativity, they provide a paradigmatic structure upon which complete philosophies can be built - philosophies which can inform a whole reality, rather than the single specific subject which they reference. Enzo's First Law of Television The camera never lies, therefore everything you see on the telly is a documentary. Enzo's Second Law of Television If you see something on telly that apparently contradicts the First Law, then it is probably a predestination paradox. And anyway, you're wrong. Enzo's Third Law of Television Enzo is always right. Not just about television. Enzo is always right about everything. Enzo's Zeroth Law of Television The people on the telly can see you. Fanner's Corollary So can the people on the radio. But they do have to squint a bit. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonD Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Enterprise actually went a long way to clearing up a lot of the little inconsistencies in Trek - especially the bumpy-headed Klingons thing. Though it didn't explain why none of the DS9 crew recognised the smooth-headed ones as Klingons in the Tribbles crossover - weren't Kirk's exploits required reading at Starfleet Academy? And didn't they come with pictures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetboy Posted May 13, 2013 Author Share Posted May 13, 2013 The established backstory/rules etc. defined as "official" (usually that means created by the original creator), as opposed to "fan-made" or other unofficial material. arghhh! me being a moron,i thanks ye kindly for that reply.......cheers Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry136 Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 OK OK, yoghurt pots was a throw away comment and I humbly stand corrected. Having Blakes 7 on dvd my comment was more a stab at the whole production, Watching it now I am slightly annoyed at the opportunity wasted to make a good show to rival Star Trek. The wobbly walls and sticky doors. The federation and thier Renault 4s and who can forget the caravan site which was in full shot in the BBC 'alien world' quarry. I know they had blown the budget early on in the series but the use of fruit machine buttons, still with 'HOLD' written on them, used on control panels. But thats BBC I suppose. Anyway, the Liberator, great design and build. Sorry if I have offended anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorth Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 (edited) To which I say thanks god for that! You've just listed all the stuff that was constipating the whole Trek franchise because one slight deviation from "canon" (which in itself is inconsistent and often not logical - ha!) and the writers are living in fear of fan forums treating all this like its real. Its funny how so many things that happened in ST:E were never mentioned or referenced in TOS, TOS movies, TNG, DS9 and STV. The problem with canon is that its pretty much a fan conceit and means damn all outside of the immediate circle of Trekkies, which I think explains why the franchise went down the toilet because for everyone else because it had just become impenetrable tedium frightened of its own shadow. Long story short its a franchise that plays loose with science, time travel, alternative realities and its own history and canon as and when it suits, with people (mostly the fan community) desperate to paper over the cracks and make out its somehow all hangs together as if it had all really happened! Its a TV series that has somehow taken on a quasi-religious cult-like status and is treated way too serious. If anything I'd say JJ Trek aligns itself more with TOS and a semi-grounded sci-fi universe than any of the subsequent shows. Spot On! I've always felt that canon was one of the biggest obstacles to Star Trek, it put the whole show in chains and eventually created a situation where the producers were toeing the line that the hard core fans had laid down rather than steering the ship themselves. It's good to have a frame to hang stuff on, but when the stuff you're hanging on it is all more or less the same so that you don't ruffle the feathers of the near cult that masquerades about as your fans, you really need to stop and consider if you're not doing the original spirit of the whole thing a great disservice in the process. From anything I've ever read about Gene Roddenberry, he was a very forward thinking and visionary fellow who was not at all afraid to explore new territory and challenge norms. In fact, there's more than a few things he was said to have wanted to try with the series that the powers that be at the time felt were too much for the TV viewing public of the day and rejected. Roddenberry was into breaking barriers and the crew in TOS was proof of that. A multi cultural crew working in harmony at a time when civil rights legislation was a major bone of contention in the U.S. The pilot episode had a woman high enough up the chain of command to take the captain's chair in his absence. TOS not only had a black woman as a regular character but as a character of significance carrying out tasks critical to the running of the ship. It also had an Asian and a Russian as helmsmen at a time when America was at war in Asia and the Cold War was at full steam. After all of that barrier breaking and norm challenging in TOS defining a critical feature of the show; tell me how walking lockstep with fan driven canon is in anyway keeping in the spirit of Roddenberry's vision. Roddenberry was not afraid of new ideas, he embraced them. Maybe it's time for Trek fans to follow his example. As for time travel, the less I see of it the better! It's overdone and often done with no purpose. It's become one of the laziest strokes of a SciFi writer's pen. Time travel in SciFi these days is like sex jokes in stand up comedy; it's everywhere, it's reliable and it's a sign of lazy writing that audiences should not stand for. Edited May 14, 2013 by upnorth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzo the Magnificent Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 After all of that barrier breaking and norm challenging in TOS defining a critical feature of the show; tell me how walking lockstep with fan driven canon is in anyway keeping in the spirit of Roddenberry's vision. Maybe it's not. But equally so, destroying everything about something just so one can exploit it for one's own ends is also not in keeping with Roddenberry's vision. That's the sort of thing that the Klingons and Romulans do. The Federation has the Prime Directive, where they try not to interfere with the natural course of things. Not a course of action which Abrams can lay claim to. As for time travel, the less I see of it the better! It's overdone and often done with no purpose. It's become one of the laziest strokes of a SciFi writer's pen. Time travel in SciFi these days is like sex jokes in stand up comedy; it's everywhere, it's reliable and it's a sign of lazy writing that audiences should not stand for. Fair comment. However, Abrams' whole universe is based on time travel - a sign of lazy writing (an Abrams characteristic). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roymattblack Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 There's and ancient but superb paperback called 'The making of Star Trek' by Stephen Whitfield - if you can track down a copy. It describes in great detail, anecdote and interviews with the cast and crew - at that time - the creation of TOS right from Gene's days writing TV police tripe. It tells how the enterprise was actually 'meant' to be the other way up (upside-down to us now) but after looking at the first model for a day or so, G.R. still thought something wasn't quite right. He turned the model over and presto - the Enterprise was born! If you haven't read this book - get a copy. Roy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roymattblack Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Just to add fuel to the fire - I would bet that Gene would be pretty happy with the Star Trek re-boot. It has brought the old stuff out of mothballs yet again. Everything is being repeated at the mo' somewhere on Sky...... Roy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 How many people care about 'Canon'? If it's a good story in it's own right all well and good. As far as I can see the only thing that caused me a moments concern was the destruction of Vulcan as I'm sure this never happened in the telly version, but hey they can sort this out in a third installment. Live long and prosper. Trevor p.s. can we get this thread back on topic and have a separate one for Star Trek reboot - good or bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyro-manic Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 (edited) How many people care about 'Canon'? If it's a good story in it's own right all well and good. Many, many people, clearly! I have to add the UFO Interceptor to my list. Bloody awful thing. Edited May 13, 2013 by pyro-manic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Jones Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I have to add the UFO Interceptor to my list. Bloody awful thing. Indeed it was , one huge missile , single shot , and fixed undercart, brilliant design , NOT !!!! Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonD Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 TOS not only had an African american woman as a regular character but as a character of significance carrying out tasks critical to the running of the ship. Sorry, you've just pushed one of my berserk buttons. Uhura was NOT an African-American woman. She was black - the terms are NOT synonymous. There was an episode (possibly the OK Corral one) where the Enterprise encountered a warning buoy and each crewman heard the message in his or her native language. Uhura heard it in Swahili, which implies she was from Africa, not the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roymattblack Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Worst ship??? The Dinky Thunderbird 2 in metallic BLUE!!!! How mental was THAT???!!! Roy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Worst ship??? The Dinky Thunderbird 2 in metallic BLUE!!!! How mental was THAT???!!! Roy. They did the same thing with the Eagle transporter, too. That was available in the same blue, a metallic green and the white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigh827 Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 From Star Trek again 'the doomsday machine' basically a silver turnip with a ray gun. Was mint to look like a war machine, gun ports, pipes and such all over it but the studio would pay for that so the silver turnip. Sorry but ST:E is an alternative time line, different from TOS. The NX-01 carries hand held Phasers yet when Pike was captain of the Enterprise they used lasers. The time line was all ready screwed up when the NX-01 was built, and the JJ Prise is from this damaged time line that is further damaged when Spock opens the black hole. As for the JJ Prise, the rooms are to big, it has a basement lined in bricks, you can see them, and if you go by the size that Adams gives for the Enterprise, it's bigger than a Star Destroyer which are over a mile long. Oh and in TOS time line, Pike captained the Enterprise all most 20 years before Kirk, as he was around the age of Kirk's father, yet in the Adams version, he studied what Kirk's father had done when he was at the academy. As for canon in Star Trek it never makes since, because it's what ever they want when ever they want it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HL-10 Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Dinky would use whatever paint they had in stock, regardless of the "proper" colours, Hence green interceptors, blue TB2s and blue Eagles. The UFO Interceptor was deliberately designed with one missile as part of the script so that the UFOs would have a chance to get past Lunar defences. As big a fan of Anderson as I am I've got to say that the space craft in the Captain Scarlet episode "White as Snow" where the Mysterons try to kill Colonel White, was pretty unimaginative. And in "Attack on Cloud Base" the Mysteron flying saucers were pretty dire! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Saw the new Star Trek movie today I absolutely loved it, in fact i love all the separate series and movies, i do realise they are not everyone's cup of tea and some people like nothing better than to complain...but There are some great lines in the latest i.e Scotty to Kirk whilst in a life or death sequence with seconds to spare before oblivion says something like ''i'm going as fast as i can captain ya mad sweetheart'' gold that is just gold Hope we get some models of the Dreadnaught class and Klingon ships...anyone know of any ??? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venomvixen Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Good: Reimagined Battlestars MK2 Vipers Enterprise NX-01 Moya from Farscape Yucky Serenity Most of the Star Wars Universe Sebation Command Carriers Enterprise B & C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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