Doing a wash the correct way?

[Dazzio]

Hello one and all,

Right I am sure questions like this have been asked so many times. I have looked through the backdated posts and couldn't find one that answered my problem specifically. So I turn my modelling failures to the great gurus of Britmodeller for help (was that enough sucking up?! ).

Right, I have mastered a few things since the return of the hobby a year or two ago. Try as I might I just can not get the "simple" art of washing sorted... and I dont mean behind my ears either. I have tried everything I could find info on, I have used Vallejo pre-mixed wash, thinned paints, thinned oil paints and even florywash/promodellers wash. Try as I may, they either stick like wet tissue to a school toilet celling or they come off quicker than a cheap hookers knickers. I do not know if its the scale I am modelling in (1/144 some 1/72). Now I must stress I have been using only Humbrol gloss coats to do this (acrylic). I'll write down what wash I used and what happened.

Vallejo pre-mixed wash - stuck fast,

thinned paints (acrylic and enamel) - mixture of sticking and coming off depending if it had dried.

thinned oil paints - came away after an hour of drying.

Flory Wash - now in some places it stuck hard and fast despite me washing it with water. While other bits just came straight off.

I do have some Humbrol clear, but I haven't been bothered to try it as I assume it's the same formula as a varnish, or close to it. I have been using a cotton bud and wiping in circular motions dipped in whatever medium it needed to get the item off. I'm totally lost as to this "simple" task. I'm not really impressed with the black flory wash either... my one is all bitty despite how well I mix it... :/

Please tell me it's something I am doing wrong and it's a really simple problem. Sorry for the noobness.

Kind Regards,

Dazz

[Abacus]

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=using+washes+on+models&oq=using+washes+on+models&gs_l=youtube.3...466.13562.0.14365.22.22.0.0.0.0.352.3053.7j12j2j1.22.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.nTTFa-1WwsU

hth, Aidan

[Duncan B]

Firstly, don't wipe in a circular motion, always work in the direction of the airflow (if it were a real aircraft) so from front to back and don't soak the cotton bud, damp is good enough. I presume you are applying your wash to a glossed surface? If not then that is why it is sticking. All of the 4 types of wash you have used should be used on gloss topcoat, you can and should always put on a duller top coat after your wash has dried.

Patience is another essential ingredient, let it have some time to dry before going at it with your damp cotton bud. I usually go away and have a cup of something while waiting for the wash to dry a little, on the aforementioned gloss coat it will wipe off regardless how long you leave it (within reason obviously) so give it 20 minutes at least but experiment with how long to leave your wash. I have accidentally left Mig wash on overnight and with some scrubbing got it to come off so don't panic and try to wipe the wash off staright away.

I have tried a few different types of wash and have now stuck on Mig enamel washes, very easy to use, come in a wide range of colours and most importantly seem to work consistently unlike Promodeller wash which was hit and miss but still useful for some applications. I tend to run the wash along the panel lines letting capilary action take it along rather than plaster it on all over, makes it easier to clean off and means I use less in the long run.

Hope that helps.

Duncan B

[thorfinn]

Dazz:

Can't claim to ge a "great guru" of anything, but I'll share what works for me. I make my own acrylic wash from water, Tamiya acrylic paint (black, brown or gray) and dishwashing soap in a by-eye mix of about 10:1:1. I use mainly Tamiya paints for most of my painting, so I put a gloss coat (Future) down before application and let it dry/cure for at least a few hours. The wash dries fairly quickly and, thanks to the soap, wipes away pretty easily with a dry cotton bud, though a moistened one can be used for trouble areas or if you want to completely remove it. It's the easiest and most idiot-proof (speaking of my qualifications) wash technique I've ever found, and I venture I've tried most of them over the years.

Two important advisories:

1) Before mixing a large quantity, test-mix a drop of your paint with a drop of the soap to be used. Once in a great while I've found soaps that congeal the paint into lumpy globs. Not completely sure why, though I suspect it may be some of the "super-anti-bacterial" additives they're adding to many detergents these days.

2) The washed areas should be sealed (another coat of Future) before applying matte (acrylic) top coats. If not, the washed areas may turn white under the flat. (I'm guessing this might not be a problem under enamel or lacquer top-coats, but i can't weigh in on that since I've never done it.)

Hope it helps.

[snapper_city]

useful info.

[Nigel Heath]

I use artists oil paints (black or Paynes grey) thinned to a watery consistency with white spirit. Let the white spirit evaporate for 10 to 30 minutes and then wipe off with a soft tissue. I wipe across (90 deg) the panel line to try to avoid wiping all the wash off. OIl streaks and the like from control surfaces should of course be done in the direction of the air flow, usually achieved with one quick swipe. As Duncan says it realy needs to be on a gloss surface, so its usually after application of Klear and decals then followed by the top coat of matt varnish. I don't usually bother to seal the decals before application as some recommend and have not had any disasters.

Another point is that the panel lines need to be deep enough to hold the wash, if they are very shallow its virtually impossible to get any wash to stay in them.

Nigel

[cheeley]

I use artists oil paints ...

<snip>

... I don't usually bother to seal the decals before application as some recommend and have not had any disasters.

I use oil paints & white spirit too, with varying degrees of success. I always use them over a gloss acrylic coat, one that has sealed the decals. The last kit I built, I was pressed for time in a group build, so I didn't do the usual gloss coat over the decals before doing the wash. The upshot is, I lost several small bits of decal when wiping off the oils. I also found that the carrier film of some of the decals got a bit stained. I was reluctant to rub too hard in case I took more decals off. In futre I'll stick to sealing the decals with gloss acrylic first

Chris

[Neal]

Useful topic. For what it's worth: couple of coats of klear, decals, then either klear for a gloss finish or Newton and Windsor acrylic Matt varnish, then flory wash. Let the wash dry for 20 mins or so and rub off with a damp paper towel cut into inch squares, rubbing in the direction of the airflow.

As I brush paint I don't then add a coat of varnish as when I tried it in the past the wash just moves about in the varnish.

I have tried making my own wash with acrylics, water & washing up liquid but its never been very successful but I think there was too much paint and not enough water.

[Dave Swindell]

Prefer good artists watercolours myself, technique is the same as above, but if you're not happy with the effect it's much easier to wash off and try again. I also use them as an overall wash over matt paints in cockpits, wheel wells etc. If the effect is too harsh, keep going over it with a damp brush cleaning the brush regularly, until you've removed enough of the wash to achieve the subtleness required. Still don't like it? wash it off and start again.

[Nigel Heath]

I guess I have been lucky with washing over bare decals. If I had any concerns about the fragility of the decals or if they were very matt I probably would seal them (with Klear). I think its good practice to try to keep the number of coats down to a minimum as each one hides a bit of detail and causes build up, particularly on canopy masking.

Nigel

[Dazzio]

Thanks for all the advice guys, I tried the Flory Wash on an F-15 reciently. The black wash was a little bit weird. I managed to get it into the lines, admitted each panel line was the size of a moon crater, but it stuck. I had problems removing it from the panels tho, it's sticking down well on the actual model. I'm building a Spitfire now as a learning experience (trying a few new "tricks" on it), so will have a go at some oil paints with white spirit. If this fails... I'm totally clueless.

Thank you for the help everyone has tried to provide. I'm just going to have to experiment and see what works. Part of me is thinking that it is the varnish I am using.

Kind Regards,

Dazz

[Will Vale]

FWIW, I really like the MIG productions pre-mixed enamel washes, applied to a surface glossed with Klear or similar. I run them into the panel line corners with a fine brush and let the panel line suck the wash up as per Duncan's description above. After leaving it for half an hour you can then edit the wash with the same brush barely dampened with thinner (dip it and wipe on paper). You get a lot of working time, which is good because this bit takes a lot of time. The neat thing about the MIG washes is that they have a pigment which seems to look like natural dirt once you've blended away any tide marks, so it's hard to go badly wrong even if it sticks to the surface a bit more than you wanted.

I used to use a cotton bud to remove the wash, and still do sometimes, but it makes it easier to lift the underlying paint: A paintbrush lets you move the pigment into the panel lines as well as pick it up if you really don't want it there (blot the brush on paper from time to time and refresh the thinners). You get a lot of control from varying the pressure on the brush, and it stops you from scrubbing the surface.

It makes a difference which enamel thinner you use to remove the wash - some are hotter than others, I think I prefer the MIG "thinner for washes", the Tamiya thinner seems quite a bit more aggressive to me. They all work well enough, but like the cotton buds some thinners are less forgiving if you're heavy handed or didn't seal the surface well enough.

Oh, they also streak really well if you use a wide brush in the direction of airflow. And watch out for decals - you can get wash collecting on the edges if they're thick, which needs extra care to remove to avoid giving them naff outlines

FWIW this little bugger was shaded with MIG dark wash, it works well on small surfaces because it's so easy to blend:

HTH,

Will

[colin]

Some of the Flory washes can be a bit hit and miss, had a light dirt one that looked like bits of chalk in it, another seemed thick and sticky but did clean off ok, one thing don't put them on a matt top coat or they stain and wont come off no matter how wet you get them.

The enamel washes mentioned should only go on top of a Acrylic top coat or you may have problems when you use thinners/white spirit, with the thinners attacking the enamel paints/clear you have used.

[DerbyJaguar]

Colin, I use the Flory washes on a gloss coat (Klear) but it has to be left for at least 24 hours to harden or yes it does stick to it and I also agree with you when you say they are a bit hit and miss.. The Black and Dark Dirt seem to be okay but the rest as you say can be a little 'chalky'.... Not tried the new MIG ones yet but I will be doing....

[RidgeRunner]

Reading the latest SAMI mag I see that watercolour washes are also suggested. Do any of you have experience of this? I think this was specficially for panel lines. Any thoughs?

[mikesmodels]

I have just used Mr. Metal Color on a model, followed by three coats of Klear. So far so good! Then I applied an oil wash diluted in turps (Mig Thinners for Washes) and this smartly removed the Klear and the Mr Metal. So its back to square one! I thought that It was OK to use oil based washes and oil paints for weathering on top of Klear - seems not.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Edited February 3, 2015 by mikesmodels

[dubster72]

If panel line washes are proving tricky, how about using pencils? They're handy for kits where the lines are shallow

On my 109, all the panel lines were done this way

Cheers

Patrick

[Giorgio N]

Reading the latest SAMI mag I see that watercolour washes are also suggested. Do any of you have experience of this? I think this was specficially for panel lines. Any thoughs?

The problem with watercolours is that these can or not stick to the surface. I tried many years ago and the ones I used did not stick onto the paint at all, at least if thinned with water. A very old book I have suggested thinning them with milk instead of water, and with this they actually worked very well. The only problem was the awful smell while applying the wash...

I have just used Mr. Metal Color on a model, followed by three coats of Klear. So far so good! Then I applied an oil wash diluted in turps (Mig Thinners for Washes) and this smartly removed the Klear and the Mr Metal. So its back to square one! I thought that It was OK to use oil based washes and oil paints for weathering on top of Klear - seems not.

Any advice would be appreciated.

It is strange, I've never had any problem with turpentine thinned washes over Klear. Guess that with 3 coats of Klear, this had enough time to set, it is definitely new to me

If panel line washes are proving tricky, how about using pencils? They're handy for kits where the lines are shallow

On my 109, all the panel lines were done this way

Cheers

Patrick

This is indeed a technique that can give some good results, as your model shows. And it is simpler to do than washes afterall.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Giorgio N

[Dave Swindell]

The problem with watercolours is that these can or not stick to the surface.

Add a drop of soap (washing up liquid) to the water you're using to thin the paints.

Use good quality artists paints.

A pin wash can be flowed into panel lines on a gloss finish, and wiped off when dry to leave a clean finish.

Staining and general weathering is best done on a matt surface

Overdone effects can be toned down by taking paint off with a damp brush or cotton swabs, or removed altogether by washing, even after the paint is dry.

Once happy with the effects they need to be sealed with a spray coat of varnish.

[RidgeRunner]

Thanks for the advice all!

[DaveCromie]

Maybe not much use on exteriors, but I find Games Workshop's inks to be invaluable for adding depth to cockpit interiors. They can be applied over enamel or acrylic paints and require no gloss coat although they might give even more definition over a glossy surface...mmmm....note to self, try this out next time! I use Thraaka Green over RAF Interior Grey Green (Humbrol and Xtracolour enamels and Xtracrylic acrylics) and also US Yellow Zinc Chromate (Tamiya acrylic) and I use Badab Black over Humbrol enamel silver to dirty up undercarriage legs/oleos. This latter one is very adaptable and can be used to simply define the structures with a very light coat worked into the right areas or applied roughly all over to simulate hard working components. I have no doubt that both of these, but particularly the black ink could be applied to exteriors easily as it can be dragged/wiped in the direction of the airflow with a damp cloth/cotton bud.

DC

[Freecloud]

On 09/05/2013 at 23:08, Dave Swindell said:

Prefer good artists watercolours myself, technique is the same as above, but if you're not happy with the effect it's much easier to wash off and try again. I also use them as an overall wash over matt paints in cockpits, wheel wells etc. If the effect is too harsh, keep going over it with a damp brush cleaning the brush regularly, until you've removed enough of the wash to achieve the subtleness required. Still don't like it? wash it off and start again.

Hi Dave.., I was wondering about the cockpit washes. As a total noob to washing/weathering, when you say wash over Matt, am I to understand that you use a was over a matt paint without any sealing. I'm curious about this as will be building a tamiya spitfire mk1 soon & I use tamiya paints. So, can I use a wash directly over the base colour of the cockpit or should I seal it with klear/varnish first & then Matt varnish on top to finish. Many thanks in advance. Regards. Garry. 

[Dave Swindell]

5 hours ago, Freecloud said:

am I to understand that you use a was over a matt paint without any sealing

Hi Garry

Yes, direct over the paint, no sealing. I use enamels (Humbrol/Xtracolor/Colourcoats etc) so no compatability problems.

I wouldn't expect any problems with acrylics either, provided they've thoroughly dried, but best to do a test piece before trying it out on the cockpit interior you've spent ages detail painting.

 

[Freecloud]

Many thanks for your reply my friend, I'll take that on-board & persue cautiously as you suggest in waiting patiently for the acrylic to dry. Got patience so hopefully I should be fine. Best regards to you. Garry. 

[Ratch]

I've had success with Humbrol and MIG weathering powders. Suitably thinned with white spirit, there's no need to wipe off.