Spitfire Vc 'High Flight' Questions

[Nick Millman]

I've been reading a very old account of high altitude interception flights over Egypt by the 103 MU modified Spitfires in a 1946 edition of the Aeroplane Spotter (Vol.VII # 173, Oct 19). One of these, BR114 'B', is shown in Osprey's 'Spitfire Mark V Aces 1941-45' in a photo and as a profile. It seems to be in Desert scheme with primer or sealant around the nose panels and has an Aboukir filter.

I had no idea how high these aircraft had climbed or what the pilots endured - to almost 50,000 ft with minus 67 degrees in the cockpit - and was inspired to model one of them. I have the Airfix Vc with both Aeroclub and Model Alliance replacement wings, as well as the dodgy Smer Vc. I'm not a Spitfire tech-head so my questions are:-

1. Colour scheme. The photo in the Aeroplane Spotter of (supposedly) BR114 with FO G W H Reynolds in the cockpit, although only newsprint quality, appears to show it in an overall light colour with a darker colour on the cowling top and fuselage spine and a Type B fuselage roundel. The 0.5 wing gun muzzles can be seen so I'm sure it's not a misidentification of a PR type There is a name in script just below the windscreen but I can't make it out. Are any other details of this aircraft's colour scheme known? Was the aircraft re-painted in a high altitude scheme after the panel lines were sealed?

2. What needs to be done to the wings, gun panels/blisters, etc., if anything, to represent the single 0.5 in wing armament?

3. I know about the four blade prop. Anything else that needs to be done?

4. How about the Aboukir filter? I know the Italeri Vb kit has one but are there any other options?

5. Would it just be easier to go with a Sword Vc or is there an AZ Models Vc on the way?

Many thanks for any and all suggestions.

Nick

[Giorgio N]

There are other pictures of BR114 showing a C1 type fuselage roundel and the same desert scheme of the picture in the Osprey book. Some are posted in this thread:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234920292-mysterious-hf-spit/

Regarding how to build a Vc, the Sword kit is miles better than any other Vc in this scale. If you have or can find one, it will make a much nicer spitfire. A good model can also be built from the Airfix kit with the aeroclub wing, but this will require bits and pieces that the Sword kit already includes.

The extended wingtips will need to be added in both cases.
Regarding the aboukir filter, airkit enterprise used to do one for the airfix Mk.V. Alternatively I might be able to help you....

[Peter Roberts]

Hi Nick

I read that with this a/c the ground crew had tried to "smooth" the panels by rubbing down raised areas, which were typically around panel lines due to the nature of Spitfire manufacture. This also seems to be around the cowl panels, curiously, as I always thought these were reasonably flush fitting.

My assumption is that these areas were then treated with some sort of "primer" coating to protect the bare metal surfaces. I have seen this represented as dull red in colour art work. Not sure of the accuracy of that, with the difficulty of interpreting photos!

HTH

PR

[Ed Russell]

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234920292-mysterious-hf-spit/

http://spitfireforums.com/index.php?topic=229.0

Might help a little

[dragonlanceHR]

Hi Nick

I read that with this a/c the ground crew had tried to "smooth" the panels by rubbing down raised areas, which were typically around panel lines due to the nature of Spitfire manufacture. This also seems to be around the cowl panels, curiously, as I always thought these were reasonably flush fitting.

Peter,

Me 109 cowls are flush fitting. Spitfire V cowls, especially at the rear, look like they're hammered to fit by a local blacksmith. I don't doubt the need to fill the gaps and smooth them.

All this looking at restored examples at Belgrade museum ( Me 109G-2 and Spitfire Vc). The difference in overall finish is huge.

Vedran

Edited May 5, 2013 by dragonlanceHR

[Nick Millman]

Thanks for the replies and suggestions Giorgio, Peter, Ed & Vedran.

It looks like not much is known about these variants.

Nick

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Can't help you with the specifc enquiry you;ve made but the Sword Spitfire Vc is very nice indeed - i've built 2 of them and as has previously mentioned, it's by miles the best Spitfire Vc in 1/72. Incidently, it does come with an Aboukir filter. Best bet is get the RAAF boxing as it has colour PE in it with instrument panel and seatbelt (think Eduard colour Zoom etch) for the same price as a regular Sword kit.

thanks

Mike

[Test Graham]

Not directly helpful, but HF Mk.VIs were also sent to serve with this flight.

The Merlin 46 was fitted to some Mk.Vs at this time, and provided better high altitude performance than the standard Merlin 45. It would be interesting to know if any of these ended up in use here. The Merlin 47 in the Mk.VIs were just Merlin 46s with an offtake for the pressurised cockpit. It seems the AM missed an opportunity to label Mk.Vs with M46s as HF Mk.Vs, but the use of additional role prefixes was rather new at this time.

[Nick Millman]

Thanks Mike and Graham.

Nick

[tonyot]

Hello Nick,

I`m not sure whether you know about this or not but here goes-

Didn`t they use a pair of these Spits, coded A & B? Of these, BS124/A was armed with a pair of cannons and the other BR114/B had a pair of .5`s?

The lighter Spit with the .5`s was supposed to climb faster to intercept the high flying Ju 86`s and disable it so that the cannon armed Spit could then catch up and finish it off.

Later they were converted with cameras and used for PR work over Greece and the Aegean Islands by 680 Sqn as F.VI(PR)`s (680 Sqn had five of these conversions on charge- BS106, 124, 133, 134 & 149) , and although the pointed wing tips were retained I believe that they may have been replaced by standard tips instead later on?.

So after use as fighters these Spit VI`s became the first pressurised PR Spitfires in RAF service.

All the best

Tony O

Edited May 6, 2013 by tonyot

[Nick Millman]

Thanks Tony. Yes, the .5 armed Spit was referred to as the "striker" and the other one as the "marker". The battery in the "striker" was replaced with a lighter one giving only enough power for the reflector sight so the radio was removed too. The two aircraft flew together at 25,000 ft with the "marker" in contact with ground control and leading the "striker" to a visual sighting of the Ju86P whereupon it would begin its pursuit.

The technique you mention happened with POs Genders and Gold with Genders in the "striker" damaging the Ju86P after a chase out to sea and forcing it down to a height where Gold could attack it. I think the ultimate fate of this Ju86P is disputed though. Genders ran out of fuel shortly after engaging and attempted to glide back to the coast from 45,000 ft but was forced to bail out 40 miles from land. According to the story in the Aeroplane Spotter he walked ashore 21 hours later.

I guess it would be nice to model the pair and display them together. I can't post the photo from the Aeroplane Spotter but I can scan it and send it to you via email if interested. It doesn't appear to be in Desert Scheme but in an overall light finish (Azure Blue?) with a darker paint on the top of the cowling and fuselage spine (Lt Med Blue?).

Nick

[Seahawk]

The "striker"/"marker" combo bit is spot on but the 103 MU HF Spitfire situation is slightly more complicated.

When the Ju 86R problem first arose, 103 MU were given permission to modify 3 newly-arrived Spitfire Vc s to counter them: these were BP985, BR114 and BR234 (source: Cull: Fighters Over The Aegean, p.182). Of these BR114 was coded "B" (Cull, p.188 plus photos). I have never seen a photo of either of the other two. Around the start of September 1942 it looks as if BP985 was passed on to the Delta Defence Flight at El-Gamil near Port Said (Cull, p. 187).

As Graham says, five Spitfire HF.VIs were sent out from the UK to reinforce the modified Spitfire Vc s: these were BS106, BS124, BS133, BS134, BS149 (sources: Shacklady: Spitfire - The History, p.259, Moss: Supermarine Spitfire (Ducimus), p.48). With the added weight of their pressurisation equipment plus Vokes filters, they proved less successful than the locally modified Spitfire Vc s. Their props were cannibalised to improve the performance of the Mark Vs (source: Price: Spitfire Mark V Aces). Of the Mark VIs, BS124 was coded "A". I can't recall seeing photos of any of the others. It sounds from Tony's post above that all 5 survived to be passed on to 680 Sq for PR duties.

Photos of BR114 are in this thread, already linked by Georgio N above:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234920292-mysterious-hf-spit/

and photos of BS124 in this 2010 Hyperscale thread:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/message/1280014186/Spitfire+Mk+VI+%28Trop

The most thorough account I've seen of 103 MU's sparrings with the Ju 86s is in the Cull book. To answer Graham's question, I haven't spotted any references there - or anywhere else - to the Mark VIs being used by 103MU at all, let alone operationally.

[tonyot]

Thanks Tony. Yes, the .5 armed Spit was referred to as the "striker" and the other one as the "marker". The battery in the "striker" was replaced with a lighter one giving only enough power for the reflector sight so the radio was removed too. The two aircraft flew together at 25,000 ft with the "marker" in contact with ground control and leading the "striker" to a visual sighting of the Ju86P whereupon it would begin its pursuit.

The technique you mention happened with POs Genders and Gold with Genders in the "striker" damaging the Ju86P after a chase out to sea and forcing it down to a height where Gold could attack it. I think the ultimate fate of this Ju86P is disputed though. Genders ran out of fuel shortly after engaging and attempted to glide back to the coast from 45,000 ft but was forced to bail out 40 miles from land. According to the story in the Aeroplane Spotter he walked ashore 21 hours later.

I guess it would be nice to model the pair and display them together. I can't post the photo from the Aeroplane Spotter but I can scan it and send it to you via email if interested. It doesn't appear to be in Desert Scheme but in an overall light finish (Azure Blue?) with a darker paint on the top of the cowling and fuselage spine (Lt Med Blue?).

Nick

Yes please Nick,

I`d love to see the photo as I`ve got a model of one of these interesting Spitfires planned and I`ve never seen one in PR guise before.

All the best mate,

Tony O

PS- Seahawk- thanks for the links to those pics, there were a few I`ve never seen before so cheers.