613 Squadron Mustang I

[Selwyn]

As a Manchester boy i am looking to build a Mustang I of 613 (city of Manchester) Sqn R aux AF in 1/72.

Can anyone reccomend the best kit to use as a starting point on this. The Mustang is the one with the .5 guns mounted beneath the engines.

Many thanks

Selwyn

[Work In Progress]

Oops, posted in error

Edited April 30, 2013 by Work In Progress

[Test Graham]

There's no kit of a Mk.1. The best kit available of an Allison-engined Mustang is the Academy P-51, which is one of the finest 1/72 kits available. However, there will be a number of changes to make it a Mk.I, including the shape of the radiator intake and the air intake above the nose, plus the armament in the nose and the wings.

Most of the other kits have problems with the wing roots (Merlin P-51 style) and the fuselage shape (yes, Merlin P-51 style!) The old Frog kit is a Mk.II but quite good for its day, the Italeri needs a bit of work but again is not a Mk.I. From memory, the MPM was much the same quality as the Italeri, perhaps not quite as good. Avoid the Condor, which was rereleased under Special Hobby.

[Tony Edmundson]

My personal favourite 1/72 Allison Mustang is the Academy kit, The wing is more accurate than the Italeri kit and it's miles better than the old Frog.

On my way in the post is the MNews NA-73 kit, and I haven't compared it to the others yet.

Tony

[Radpoe Spitfire]

Hi Selwyn,

Unfortunately I don't know of anything in 1/72 scale, but in 1/48 there was a decal set with a 613 sqn Mustang. Couple that with an Accurate miniatures kit & you could have a beauty on your hands.

Failing that, the Eduard RAF Lysander in 1/48 has a 613 aircraft on the decal sheet- if you can find one!!!!

Incidentally, I don't know if you're aware but they flew the Lysander & Curtis P40 in South Yorkshire. The Lysander was operated from Netherthorpe ( home to Sheffield Aero Club) Firbeck & Doncaster ( Home to South Yorkshire Aircraft Museum). It was at Doncaster, they exchanged the Lizzies for the P40.

Regards Rad

[Test Graham]

I should perhaps add that the Academy kit is going out of production (or so I've seen) so may not be readily available I notice that a lot of their other kits are being rereleased in new boxes, presumably new markings options, so perhaps the P-51 may follow. It is worth spending a bit of effort to get it rather than any of the others.

If you do end up stuck with one of the other ones, correcting the wing root isn't that difficult. The leding edge extension is shorter than that of the later types, and has considerable droop. You have to trim the lower wing extension and bend down the upperwing part, with a bit of trimming. It is fiddly but not super-modeller standard.

[Bruce Archer]

As a Manchester boy i am looking to build a Mustang I of 613 (city of Manchester) Sqn R aux AF in 1/72.

Can anyone reccomend the best kit to use as a starting point on this. The Mustang is the one with the .5 guns mounted beneath the engines.

Many thanks

Selwyn

Hi!

There are actually two kits. The first is the Special Hobby Mustang I, but it is rough. As a short run kit, and it appears it is the old Condor kit, it is an early short run kit and will need a lot of TLC to build it.

The second is the Academy P-51 kit. The P-51(Mustang Ia) was a Mustang I with 20mm cannon. so change the armament to 2X .50 cal guns in the nose, and 2X .303 and one .50 cal guns in each wing. Everything else is the same.

Bruce

[Selwyn]

Hi!

There are actually two kits. The first is the Special Hobby Mustang I, but it is rough. As a short run kit, and it appears it is the old Condor kit, it is an early short run kit and will need a lot of TLC to build it.

The second is the Academy P-51 kit. The P-51(Mustang Ia) was a Mustang I with 20mm cannon. so change the armament to 2X .50 cal guns in the nose, and 2X .303 and one .50 cal guns in each wing. Everything else is the same.

Bruce

Thanks Gents.

I have the Academy P51 (Mustang 1A ) kit in the stash somewhere so It looks like I wil be modifying that to the required configuration.

Thanks for your help and comments!

Selwyn

[Chuck1945]

...

On my way in the post is the MNews NA-73 kit, and I haven't compared it to the others yet.

Tony

Run away, fast!

[rossm]

I'm sure I've got an Italeri Mustang I which I started and put to one side many years ago. I think the leading edges at the root suffered the aforementioned P-51D problem which seemed easy to correct (at least to my standards of accuracy) but I don't think I checked the fuselage. It has a choice of machine gun or cannon armament so I think could make a Mk.Ia or II.

Ross

[rav]

The second is the Academy P-51 kit. The P-51(Mustang Ia) was a Mustang I with 20mm cannon. so change the armament to 2X .50 cal guns in the nose, and 2X .303 and one .50 cal guns in each wing. Everything else is the same.

I did it about 2 months ago:

Additional changes were in panel lines on the wings (most of them removed, guns access panels altered). Landing light were moved outwards.

[Prenton]

I just did the Special Hobby kit - it gives you the option of either a 1 or a 1a. As mentioned above, it is a bit rough, but comes out nicely if you have a bit of patience and some modelling skills. Be prepared for resin and photo-etch, though, as well as a a LOT of filler.....

Philip

[Fernando]

Hi, all,

Even in 1/48 there is no Mustang I. AM renderings are a Mustang IA (P-51) and a Mustang II (P-51A), not counting the A-36.

Fernando

[Test Graham]

I rather hope others, better-informed than I, will come to clear up these points, but the different Allison-engined Mustangs also had differences in the radiator intake ducting and the air intake shape. I've seen the intake discussed on this board, but don't recall where. Is Col Ford on holiday?

[rav]

different Allison-engined Mustangs also had differences in the radiator intake ducting and the air intake shape.

Yes, but this is not the case if you convert from Academy kit P-51/Mk.IA to Mustang Mk.I. Both had narrow upper intake and variable radiator intake. Later models (A-36A and P-51A) had wide upper intake and fixed radiator intake.

[Test Graham]

Thank you. That does make the conversion considerably easier.

[MDriskill]

I currently have this project in progress, and definitely agree the Academy kit is the only viable starting point.

The Italeri kit is very poor indeed. The fuselage is of the same basic geometry as their P-51B kit, so is a scale 3 inches too tall--I know, doesn't sound like much in 1/72, but makes a huge difference to the shape of the nose contours and overall proportions. The kit is also missing much of the canopy framing and has other basic molding shortcomings.

While it's foolish for a guy my age to say this without his references in front of him...I agree that the carb intake and radiator fairings were the same for the Mustang I and P-51/Mustang IA (i.e., these should be correct as is on the Academy kit). It was the following Allison variants (A-36 and P-51A/Mustang II) that made significant changes to these details.

Also as noted above, the Academy kit will require considerable modifications to the wing guns and their access panels, also landing lights and some other minor bits.

I highly recommend the recent book "Building the P-51 Mustang," by the way. It contains MANY previously unpublished factory photos of all Mustang variants, with especially excellent coverage of the early variants. IMHO it really stands out in the vast sea of material available on the P-51 (beware of one photo in it that repeats a commonly-stated error though: UK Mustangs did not have "spade grip" control columns).

Edited May 2, 2013 by MDriskill

[Tony Edmundson]

I did it about 2 months ago:

Additional changes were in panel lines on the wings (most of them removed, guns access panels altered). Landing light were moved outwards.

Nice job, It's hard to tell from the angle, but did you stagger the nose guns at all ???

Tony

[rav]

did you stagger the nose guns at all ???

Yes, the starboard gun (Master brass) is about 1 mm shorter (it sits deeper in the hole).

[Bruce Archer]

To do a 1/48th scale model, use the former Accurate Miniatures P-51/F-6A/Mustang Ia kit with the Ultracast conversion set. But please note, the prop blades are wrong, they are for the later Mustangs(A-36/P-51A/F-6B/Mustang II). The Eduard P-39 kit does have the correct Curtiss Electric needle props.

Bruce

[ColFord]

Someone call??

The thread of wisdom and knowledge on all things Allison Engined Mustang with the RAF on BritModeller is here:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/44133-a-few-mustang-mki-questions/

Includes lots of photos and extracts from the manuals.

There are a couple of other threads, search around for Mustang and RAF. For some reason search does not seem to be finding threads beyond a certain date.

Certainly the Mustang Mk.I and MkIA had the narrow air intake above the cowling and the moveable 'ramp' front air intake for the radiator. Altho later in service there was a mod where the moveable intake ramp was 'fixed' at a set position.

The A-36 and and P-51A (Mustang Mk.II) had the later broader air intake above the cowling and a redesigned fixed front air intake for the radiator. Also detail differences in the shape and design of the radiator core inside the radiator tunnel, but not something easily seen in a 1/72nd scale model, unless of course you are going the 'whole hog' of doing some drastic scratch building of a Mustang Mk.I in a servicing scenario with the panels off the radiator area??

You have to be careful about which kit you use as your starting point to do a Mk.I, and also what the serial number is of the aircraft you are modelling, as there were detail differences between the first production block - the AG series aircraft, and the later ones. Also the differences in the wing bay access panels for the armament for the Mk.I vs the Mk.IA.

And let me repeat, what I have stated before and I will state again, a limited, underline LIMITED number of early Mustang Mk.Is were known to be modified at the unit level with the replacement of the standard 'pistol grip' control column top section as supplied by NAA, with what I have been reliably informed was the ring grip top section of the control column from a Harvard Mk.I. Done for a small number of aircraft, for the unit OC - in the days when such things could still happen - and the unit OC had an aircraft that he called his own, not normally shared with other pilots. Confirmed by eye witnesses including a senior pilot who flew one of the Mustangs so modified - in my direct discussions with them.

No kit manufacturer to date in any scale has gotten the fine details correct in their kits of the Allison engined Mustangs. They all have some error radiator intake shapes, wing leading edge shapes or similar. Some you can use as a good starting point where with a little modelling skills and some patience a reasonably close scale replica can be achieved. I live in hope of someone like Eduard - based on the accuracy and quality of their recent 1/48th Spitfire IX kit - some day doing us some truly accurate early Mustang models.

Regards,

[Adam Maas]

You cannot convert a 1A to a 1 without some fairly noticeable mods to the nose. The 1A had a different lower nose cowling as it lacked the 2x.50's. This is scratchbuildable as show above.

The SH kit is really just a cross-kitting of their 1A and A-36 kits with additional resin for the wing gun fits. It's the most accurate 1 available in kit form, but not perfect as it uses the main fuselage for the A-36 (which shares the lower nose fit with the 1), which had a wider nose air intake.

The Ultracast conversion in 1/48 produces a semi-1. You still retain the major problem of the AM 1A kit, which is the A-36/P-51A radiator installation (as well as the too-tall tail). A pity as it otherwise gives you a rather accurate 1.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Adam Maas

[gingerbob]

To do a 1/48th scale model, use the former Accurate Miniatures P-51/F-6A/Mustang Ia kit with the Ultracast conversion set. But please note, the prop blades are wrong, they are for the later Mustangs(A-36/P-51A/F-6B/Mustang II). The Eduard P-39 kit does have the correct Curtiss Electric needle props.

Bruce, is the P-39 prop (as provided in the kit) the right diameter? The Acc Min props are awful anyway- the tips are thick, not "airfoilish", and this really sticks out to me.

The thread of wisdom and knowledge on all things Allison Engined Mustang with the RAF on BritModeller is here:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/44133-a-few-mustang-mki-questions/

Includes lots of photos and extracts from the manuals.

Certainly the Mustang Mk.I and MkIA had the narrow air intake above the cowling and the moveable 'ramp' front air intake for the radiator. Altho later in service there was a mod where the moveable intake ramp was 'fixed' at a set position.

The A-36 and and P-51A (Mustang Mk.II) had the later broader air intake above the cowling and a redesigned fixed front air intake for the radiator. Also detail differences in the shape and design of the radiator core inside the radiator tunnel, but not something easily seen in a 1/72nd scale model, unless of course you are going the 'whole hog' of doing some drastic scratch building of a Mustang Mk.I in a servicing scenario with the panels off the radiator area??

You have to be careful about which kit you use as your starting point to do a Mk.I, and also what the serial number is of the aircraft you are modelling, as there were detail differences between the first production block - the AG series aircraft, and the later ones. Also the differences in the wing bay access panels for the armament for the Mk.I vs the Mk.IA.

Colin, I'd like to know more about that mod to fix (make immobile) the intake ramp, if you would be so kind. You should know where to find me.

I agree about the linked thread- well worth a look through (though in the interests of full disclosure I participated in it).

I'd have agreed with you (all) about the carb air intake until just recently, but I see it differently now (and I'm also anxious to be corrected, if I'm wrong!)

Here's how I currently understand it, based on reading through documents, manuals, etc, and studying pictures as much as possible. (Does anyone have good shots showing the intake from above (looking down at it) on A-36 and P-51A?):

NA-73 (Mustang I, AG- serials) had the straight carb air intake. There's some question of subsequent changes, but this might not have happened after all.

NA-83 (still Mustang I) introduced provision for a Vokes filter element, which means the more shapely intake trunk (though Acc Min's seems to be very inaccurately shaped). With this setup you had to choose on the ground- there were some baffles (as NAA calls them) which guide the air down the trunk. If you wanted filtered air, you removed the baffles and substituted in their place the filter unit. This arrangement continued through the A-36, though I admit I'm not sure if it was universally true- for example, might RAF Mustang IAs have reverted to the straight intake, whereas US F-6As (P-51s) had the filter-style intake?

The NA-83 also may have had a different radiator, though any changes to the "radiator cowling" are minor. It also eliminated an internal bullet-proof glass, incorporating that as the windscreen proper.

The Mustang IA (NA-91) was same as NA-83 except for some minor changes and, of course, the 20mm armament.

A-36 (NA-97) introduced the fixed radiator intake (with a somewhat different shape at the front?), and continued to use the NA-83's new radiator.

P-51A/Mustang II (NA-99) had a new new radiator, of a significantly different shape for the first time. The shape of the radiator cowling changed accordingly, being "slimmer" (less deep under the fuselage) and I think "squarer" in cross-section, and the intake shape changed again, also.

While initial production may have gone back to the straight (NA-73) carb air intake, or something similar, most had a new filter setup, which was selectable from the cockpit for the first time- basically the filter element would lay flat along the bottom of the intake duct and the (unfiltered) air came straight down from the front intake (it wasn't a truly straight path), then if you pulled a lever in the cockpit, the filter element hinged up so that the air had to pass through it, while at the same time some other baffles shifted position, so that the nose intake was closed off and the air entered from a now-open door in the top of the intake trunk.

The P-51A-10 (I think) also introduced a carb heat system, which drew air from a small door just behind the port-side exhausts when in use. Previous models had had the ability to bypass the intake trunk (should it ice up, for example) and draw air from the engine compartment. I don't remember whether the one replaced the other, or if these were two different things.

I am making the assumption that all filter style intakes are the same shape, though I really don't have enough information to be certain yet.

bob