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Steven

colour of Rockets fitted to Hurricane

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As it says above what colour are the rockets fitted to the Hurricane.

Regards Steve

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In WW2 The rocket Body of British 3 " rockets could be either Bronze green or White.

(White would probably have been provided for use by the FAA on aircraft with white underside camoflage as green rockets would compromise the camoflage scheme)

The colour of the warhead depended on the type of warhead being used. The rocket type that appears in most model kits have the bulged nose of the 60lb SAP (Semi Armour Piercing) head. This too is Bronze green with a 1/2" white and a 1/2" red band near the nose, and a 1" Eau de nil band around the centre of the head.

There were actually 5 different warheads available for operational use on the 3" rocket, and two different types of concrete practice heads (25lb and 60lb) all these had a different colour scheme depending on type and role.

Selwyn

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My information about black bodies came from an ex-RAF armourer. Admittedly post-war but only just. It seems unlikely that stocks were ever repainted, but stranger things have happened.

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In WW2 The rocket Body of British 3 " rockets could be either Bronze green or White.

(White would probably have been provided for use by the FAA on aircraft with white underside camoflage as green rockets would compromise the camoflage scheme)

The colour of the warhead depended on the type of warhead being used. The rocket type that appears in most model kits have the bulged nose of the 60lb SAP (Semi Armour Piercing) head. This too is Bronze green with a 1/2" white and a 1/2" red band near the nose, and a 1" Eau de nil band around the centre of the head.

There were actually 5 different warheads available for operational use on the 3" rocket, and two different types of concrete practice heads (25lb and 60lb) all these had a different colour scheme depending on type and role.

Selwyn

Interesting: thank you. And the colours of the 25 lb AP head?

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I`ve got a colour photo of rockets being loaded onto a late 1940`s Vampire and they are definitely Dark Bronze Green, as also used on British Army vehicles of the time. No doubt they were old wartime stock so I`d go with that colour. They were a satin sheen and the warheads were a slighty lighter shade but these look to be more weathered and dirty rather than painted a different colour.

Cheers

Tony O

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Seahawk,

The 25lb AP heads were painted black. The markings on this are the nose tip was painted white to a depth of 1" and there was a white 1/2" band just behind that.

Selwyn

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My information about black bodies came from an ex-RAF armourer. Admittedly post-war but only just. It seems unlikely that stocks were ever repainted, but stranger things have happened.

Graham,

I must admit I have never seen or heard of a Black rocket motor in operational use. I have seen Black 3" rockets on display in museums, but as Black in the WW2 colour system indicates "inert" that is not suprising!

What must be understood that all the colours used on munitions mean something. A munition will be painted overall in what is known as its "Operational" colour and marked with bands of various colours and sizes (or alternatively the colour of the ident lettering used on it!) to indicate its "Role" and other markings display the item Explosive content, down to the type of explosive used. The rocket motor manufacturers would be required to mark their munitions in accordance with the official marking systems laid down by the Military.

As most images of these 3" rockets are seen in Black and White pictures in shadows under aircraft wings and then cross referring to museum items as well, its not a shock that the assumption is that they were black.

As the warhead was supplied seperately to the motor it would have its own seperate markings. the examples I gave above are case in point.

To "Read" the 60lb SAP head - Medium Bronze green overall indicates it is an operational item, the red band indicates it is an Explosive item , the white band - Semi Armour Piercing. The Eau de Nil - indicates a High Explosive fill, and the type of explosive is marked in letters- RDX (for example) that would be stencilled on the Eau de Nil band.

Reading The 25 lb head. Overall black -signifies inert (this round was a solid shot) the white nose and band- Armour Piercing.

The "operational" colour used by the RAF in WW2 on all its munitions was Medium Bronze Green BS 223 and was the overall base colour seen on all British bombs/aircraft munitions manufactured post 41ish (thats an ballpark estimate! the changover was gradual) I am not sure of the changeover from Light Buff, which was the previously used Operational colour that originated from markings used on British shells from Victorian times. This colour was not made obsolete at the changeover (instigated by the RAF as a camoflage measure), The British Army operational shells throughout WW2 were still painted Buff. This Buff colour was present in BS381c from the start and eventually became BS 358.

The British colour marking system was changed and added to during and after the war with colours added and amended to warn of hazards present in new weapons developed at that time. This system lasted until 1964 when the British changed completely to the NATO munitions marking system. At the same time the British Operational Colour changed to overall Deep Bronze Green BS 224. Recently (in the last ten years) this operational colour has officially changed again to Camoflage Grey BS 626,( again for camoflage reasons) for new weapons such as Paveway IV as seen on Grey Tornados.

Another thing that causes confusion to modellers comes from looking at WW2 pictures showing US manufactured bombs that were supplied to the RAF. These arrived marked in the US system of marking with HE marked in a yellow band system on their Olive drab operational colour.

You could write a (long) book on this subject!

Selwyn

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Thank you Selwyn - I rather wish someone would write a book on the subject. I suspect it would not see a long print run, but in the following years copies would be selling for astronomical prices. printers have a sensitive eye for storage costs nowadays, and slow-burners are heavily discouraged if not extinct.

i can only assume that memory has flipped the colours that Derek Pennington quoted at me: my apologies to anyone who was misled. This does mean I shall have to go upstairs and repaint a lot of Typhoon rockets - fortunately not yet glued under the Typhoon wings.

It remains to ask which paints you prefer for Deep Bronze Green. I used to use Humbrol 75 but for some years now it has been too dark and grey rather than the strong colour it used to be. WEM have a number of options for various Bronze greens, and I believe there's one in Xtracolour as well.

Edited by Graham Boak

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Thank you Selwyn - I rather wish someone would write a book on the subject. I suspect it would not see a long print run, but in the following years copies would be selling for astronomical prices. printers have a sensitive eye for storage costs nowadays, and slow-burners are heavily discouraged if not extinct.

i can only assume that memory has flipped the colours that Derek Pennington quoted at me: my apologies to anyone who was misled. This does mean I shall have to go upstairs and repaint a lot of Typhoon rockets - fortunately not yet glued under the Typhoon wings.

It remains to ask which paints you prefer for Deep Bronze Green. I used to use Humbrol 75 but for some years now it has been too dark and grey rather than the strong colour it used to be. WEM have a number of options for various Bronze greens, and I believe there's one in Xtracolour as well.

Graham,

i usually use Xtracolor for Mid bronze green and Deep bronze green, they are both listed as armour colours.

Selwyn

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HI Steven

In relation to your question, I presume you are intereted in modelling a rocket armed Hurricane, so unless you are going to do a Sea Hurricane IIC with rockets you are talking a MkIV, for you or anyone else, If you have not seen these threads, I suggest you have a read, as these details don't seem to be well known.

Rocket armed Hurricanes in the Far East

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234925893-rocket-armed-hurricanes-in-the-far-east/

and

Hurricane Mk IV - service?

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/59225-hurricane-mk-iv-service/

and

RAF rocket blast plates

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234914718-raf-rocket-blast-plates/

Sea Hurricane with rockets

http://forums.diecast-aviation.eu/showthread.php?t=7582

useful info, photos and drawings of the different wing panels.

HTH

T

Edited by Troy Smith

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Would these same colors apply to a German Hawker Sea Hawk with a rocket load? Or would postwar colors be different?

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Below are some of the pictures of British Rockets I have collected

tail_section.jpg

modellenzaal026.jpg

60lb.jpg

25lb.jpg

0150.jpg

0152.jpg

untitled-17.jpg

jnjnm.jpg

Edited by johnnyboy

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Great photos Johnny. I predict a rash of Typhoons with orange pigtails! The 3rd one down on the wall display looks like the real deal for 2ndTAF Typhoon! Where did you spot them?

The drawing of the slim head with the silvery screw top is an anti-personnel job - 60 lb fragmentation head, introduced in December 1944.

I've only seen the 25 lb RP (the ones with black/white heads) used by one squadron - 263 when it was engaged on anti-shipping work - although it is likely 137 Squadron used them as well as they were engaged in similar work at the same time.

Brilliant. Many thanks for posting.

Chris

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Great photos Johnny. I predict a rash of Typhoons with orange pigtails! The 3rd one down on the wall display looks like the real deal for 2ndTAF Typhoon! Where did you spot them?

The drawing of the slim head with the silvery screw top is an anti-personnel job - 60 lb fragmentation head, introduced in December 1944.

I've only seen the 25 lb RP (the ones with black/white heads) used by one squadron - 263 when it was engaged on anti-shipping work - although it is likely 137 Squadron used them as well as they were engaged in similar work at the same time.

Brilliant. Many thanks for posting.

Chris

Thanks Chris I got most just surfing the net but a lot of information I picked from the BOCN

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/86012-3-quot-Rocket

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Below are some of the pictures of British Rockets I have collected

tail_section.jpg

modellenzaal026.jpg

60lb.jpg

25lb.jpg

0150.jpg

0152.jpg

untitled-17.jpg

jnjnm.jpg

Just a quick heads up, for your interest,

The two top rockets with the triangular type fins in the second image from the top are not actually aircraft rockets.

The top one with the cropped fins is a British army 3" Lilo assult rocket designed to be used by infantry against lightly reinforced obstacles. and was fired from a "small portable launcher" using battery power!

The second white painted rocket with triangular fins is a ground (or ship!) fired 3" anti aircraft rocket. The warheads on these rockets were always fitted with an airburst fuze for obvious reasons.

The Buff coloured warhead in the bottom of the picture is a alternative type of warhead (29lb) used only on yet another type of ground launched rocket, called the 3" barrage rocket, also known as the "land matress." It would not have been used on aircraft.

Selwyn

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With profound apolgies to the original author, here is a picture that I took down from a website some time ago:

2qa8y1j.jpg

For all I can remember, it might have come from Britmodeller or even from one of the learned members who has already posted in this thread. I would be happy to give credit if I knew where I got it and will be happy to take it down if it violates any policies. It is, however, germane to the present discussion.

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There were two armour piercing heads, the 25lb one illustrated above, and a longer, 'double ogive' design. These were both used against submarines from Swordfish and others. They discovered that these rockets would travel on an upwards curving path through water, so if the pilot aimed short slightly, the rocket would still strike the hull of the vessel, below the waterline. The double ogive curve improved this performance. Both heads were solid steel, painted black and marked as mentioned above. I will look out the pages from the AP when I get home!

Tim Perry

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There were two armour piercing heads, the 25lb one illustrated above, and a longer, 'double ogive' design. These were both used against submarines from Swordfish and others. They discovered that these rockets would travel on an upwards curving path through water, so if the pilot aimed short slightly, the rocket would still strike the hull of the vessel, below the waterline. The double ogive curve improved this performance. Both heads were solid steel, painted black and marked as mentioned above. I will look out the pages from the AP when I get home!

Tim Perry

you will find tthat one is the 25lb SAP and the other the 25lb AP.

Selwyn

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Interestingly, the diagrams that Steven has posted match neither the diagrams nor the photos and descriptions posted earlier in the thread. Notably, they lack the white and eau de nil bands, and the red band is in a different position. Was there a permissible variation, or is the latter set of drawings inaccurate?

Edit: Actually in Johnnyboy's second photo, there is a warhead (minus motor) that matches Steven's drawing, i.e. with red band further aft and no white or green.

Edited by JasonC

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Interestingly, the diagrams that Steven has posted match neither the diagrams nor the photos and descriptions posted earlier in the thread. Notably, they lack the white and eau de nil bands, and the red band is in a different position. Was there a permissible variation, or is the latter set of drawings inaccurate?

Edit: Actually in Johnnyboy's second photo, there is a warhead (minus motor) that matches Steven's drawing, i.e. with red band further aft and no white or green.

As I alluded to in my post earlier, the colours and markings of munitions were amended and added to as time went on.

If you look at the date of manufacture marked on the rocket head drawings in Steves drawings, they are marked 1954 /55 which probably date these images from the early 1950's postwar period.

the 18lb GP and 12lb practice rounds are post war aditions to the rocket arsenal.

The colours I gave are from the WW2 rocket AP, and in line with the original post were correct for WW2 aircraft such as the Hurricane.

Steves colours are correct for your 1950's Vampire /Venom era aircraft.

I will repeat what I said in my other post, you could write a lengthy (and complicated!) tome on the subject of weapon colours!

Selwyn

Edited by Selwyn

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