Hurricane question.....

[mackem01]

In the In Focus book of Hurricane squadrons by Philip Birtles, on page 20 there is a picture of a 3 Sqn Hurricane, L1934 coded OP-D.

I wondered if any of you guys with a copy of the book could answer the following:

i/ Am I correct in assuming it's fitted with a two blade Watts propellor?

ii/ Can anyone tell from the picture if it is a fabric covered wing and what are the give aways?

iii/ The Dark Earth behind the cockpit appears "washed out" - is that just a trick of the light when the photo was taken?

Would appreciate any answers as this is going to be my next project when my 2 Sqn Jaguar is done (progress pics to follow),

so I need to start getting stuff in for the build.

As always, thanks for all your help.

[Troy Smith]

On 15/04/2013 at 13:20, mackem01 said:

In the In Focus book of Hurricane squadrons by Philip Birtles, on page 20 there is a picture of a 3 Sqn Hurricane, L1934 coded OP-D.

I wondered if any of you guys with a copy of the book could answer the following:

i/ Am I correct in assuming it's fitted with a two blade Watts propellor?

If it's a 2 bladed it's a Watts. Is the picture a profile or a photo?

Quote

ii/ Can anyone tell from the picture if it is a fabric covered wing and what are the give aways?

If it's a 2 blade prop, I think it's safe to presume a fabric wing. There's is a thread here somewhere on the amount of fabric winged Hurricanes built, 600 is the figure usually quoted.

if I can find the link I'll post it.Indicators of fabric wing, from the front, the wing lights are a closer in, there are 5 ejector ports in the underwing, and the upper wing gun access panels are a different shape.

Quote

iii/ The Dark Earth behind the cockpit appears "washed out" - is that just a trick of the light when the photo was taken?

There are a few photos showing that the fabric covered areas either faded faster, or due to perhaps light diffusion, appear lighter.

an example from this thread

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234907653-hurricane-i-vy-cg-of-85-sqn-lille-seclin-around-apr-1940/

In this you can clearly se a paler fabric on the fuslelage and outer wings. This is probably fading as thhis plane had been in france a few months.

In this thread, there are links to other threads on Fabric winged Hurricanes, and also I linked the Prime Portal walkround, of the Fabric winged plane in the Science Musuem.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234937987-kits-for-cash-hurricane-fabric-wing/

Just had a look at Etienne's Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/search/?ss=2&w=8270787%40N07&q=hurricane&m=text

some colour pre war pics

this is OP-R

Squadron line up

from the front, note the lights are closer in than a metal wing

HTH

T

[mackem01]

Thanks Troy, that's absolutely fantastic. So, change of plan - using the Airfix kit of the Mk1, I shall smooth off the detail and replace with tapes, try to rescribe the gun access panels, redo the landing lamps and gun ports. It will now be finished as OP-R in the above picture. One more question - would the wing tapes be very prominent in 48th scale? So, off to hannants.....

[Troy Smith]

Thanks Troy, that's absolutely fantastic. So, change of plan - using the Airfix kit of the Mk1, I shall smooth off the detail and replace with tapes, try to rescribe the gun access panels, redo the landing lamps and gun ports. It will now be finished as OP-R in the above picture. One more question - would the wing tapes be very prominent in 48th scale? So, off to hannants.....

Rib tapes are not very prominent on the real thing, they are just strips of fabric. Milne Bay/Malcolm's prototype Hurricane with the paint ribbing worked well, but you could use thin paper or adhesive backed aluminum tape.

have a practice on a scrap wing of something.

You might want to look up the various ways of reproducing rib tapes, and have a good look at the Sciecne Musuem Hurricane pics, there some great pics of the underwing which super size and you can see the details very well. the leading edges remained metal, but the fabric wrapped over them, as the panels were lapped you could just sand the raised detail back a bit.

The gun port are the same, it's the underwing ejector chutes that are different, again, well shown in the Prime Portal walkround.

There are a lot of small detail changes that were introduced as the Hurricane came into service, note of OP-R the straight aerial mast, ring and bead sight, 'kidney' exhaust, 5 spoke wheels, different windscreen, lack of 2nd rectangular fabric covered access panel on starboard side.

have you get the Bentley Drawings? Scans are possible, printouts too if needed. let me know.

If you want an easier life, I'd suggest going down the Kit's for Cash/Heritage wing with the Ark kit for the fuselage and details, [it copies the hasegawa cockpit and landing gear legs] but Airfix Hurricanes can be got cheap, and back dating one would be very satisfying, and not the end of the world if it goes wrong.

Oh, before I forget, early hurricanes interior framework and seat was painted in aluminum paint, not grey-green. There are pics on here of the untouched since 1943 Finnish Hurricane, which show all this very well.

eg

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/61201-gloster-hurricane-cockpit-colour/

Any more questions, fire awy

T

Edited April 15, 2013 by Troy Smith

[mackem01]

Hmmm - I really want to have a go at this, but think I need to rethink it. Back to the drawing board.....

[Troy Smith]

It's all do-able, but every option takes some work.

If you note in the other thread on the options for doing a fabric wing Hurricane in 1/48th, assuming you want a fair degree of accuracy, all require some work, even the Classic Aiframes kit has issues as mentioned.

As a Hurricane anorak, the simplest route are KFC/Heritage wing plus Ark base kit, which is easily availble, and the Ark kit can be got on ebay for about £10 with post if you wait.

pics here of how to deal with the crap fit on the Ark kit.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234934849-classic-airframes-hurricane-worth-getting/

You'd still need some 5 spoke wheels, but KFC Ian has plans to include these in his conversion when he gets chance.

[or when I send him a master ...]

The cheapest route is an Airfix hurricane, with a 2 blade prop and vac canopy,[Aeroclub used to do both , ask John Adams if he still has them, he has a section here, his BM name is John Aero] and some 5 spoke wheels, note, Aeroclub used to do a set of Spitfire gear legs with 4 and 5 spoke wheel hubs, a set of the 5 spoke hubs can be used to replace the hubs in the Airfix kit wheels. It works, I've done it. Drill out the existing ones, and fit the 5 spoke ones.

Note, the Special Hobby/Eduard Spitfire/Seafire kits have 3 sets of hubs in them, 5 spoke, 4 spoke and covered, meaning that 5 spoke hubs are in various spares boxes... you could ask in the wanted section.

cheers

T

PS or do it in 1/72nd, there's a new Airfix fabric wing Hurricane due....

Edited April 15, 2013 by Troy Smith

[Spitfire31]

You'd still need some 5 spoke wheels, but KFC Ian has plans to include these in his conversion when he gets chance.

[or when I send him a master ...]

I just got a set (two sets, in fact) of Ultracast's beautiful resin five spoke Hurrican wheels, #48075. http://www.ultracast.ca/products/48/075/default.htm

Recommended!

Kind regards,

Joachim

[mackem01]

As my eyes do not work in 1/72 scale, and thanks to all your help I'm going down the road of 1/48 Airfix fuselage with the KFC conversion kit and thanks to Joachim's last post gotta have me some of those lovely Ultracast wheels. Want to get this started as soon as I can after today's discussions.

Thanks to everyone for the info, espescially Troy.

[Troy Smith]

HI

OK, first, I have some Ultracast wheels. Beautifully cast, yes, accurate? I'm not sure.

The 4-spoke are basically the Hasgawa wheels in resin. These are wrong, the hubs are too small, it makes the tyres look to 'doughnutty'

real thing

ultracast

The 5 spoke are the same size hubs.

[Finnish Hurricane to the rescue for a decent wheel pic.]

make you own mind up. The 5 spoke look a closer match, but the 4 spoke are not good.

Aftermarket is not necessarily accurate either!!!!

In the UK the best bet for Ultracast is

http://www.3d-kits.co.uk/online-shop/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=hurricane&x=0&y=0

Also a fixed shipping rate in UK of £1.50, which is helpful. Note, Stewart of 3-D orders from Ultracast on a regular basis, so he can order in specific items in a few weeks if not in stock.

[The post rates from Canada are shocking BTW.]

As for the fuselage, I do suggest the Ark as a donor as opposed to Airfix.

Yes, tricky fit, and fiddly, but it has engraved panel lines that are a decent match to the ones on the KFC wing, as well a decent basis for a cockpit, and decent UC legs.

One other drawback, a tricky filling job on the 2nd rectangular panel on the port side.

Rescribing the Airfix fuselage is tricky, I've done it, the big problem is dealing with the panel lines on the fabric bits, again, removing that 2nd panel, the one missing in this photo. Early Hurricanes don't have this. like this

this is a IIC but it shows the panel I mean.

You will also need to rescribe the fasteners, a thin piece of tube, say, the blunt syringe from an ink refill kit, or, what i got many years ago from a graphics shop, the end of a propelling pencil. These come in a variety of sizes for different lead sizes.

i really must avoid doing as as it eats time!

cheers

T

[Work In Progress]

This seems to be one of the most popular subjects of the year so far on BM.

I agree with everything Troy says: do also try a search on the forums here as there have been many, many other threads on fabric wing Hurricanes on here in the last three years and there's lots of good material in them.

I am struggling with the newly mucked up Photobucket to get some pics up of the fine 5-spoke wheels that come in the new Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX, will try to do that tonight otherwise I am sure you will find some good sprue shots elsewhere.*

What I've often used for rib tapes is the self-adhesive aluminium plumber's foil tape that you can buy in rolls in most of the DIY places. Stick onto glass, cut with Stanley knife, lft into place on the tip of a scalpel, rub down well into position with the back of a teaspoon handle, making sure to burning down any sharp edges. Looks fine under a coat of primer.

*Turns out I don;t really need to post my own pic, here's a perfect one from Brett's review of the Spit IX on Hyperscale.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Work In Progress

[Ultracast]

Our Hurricane wheels are not the Hasegawa wheels cast in resin. We have updated our webpage with a comparison photo of the Hasegawa and Ultracast wheel hubs which can be found at the following link: Ultracast Hurricane 4-Spoke Wheels

With regard to the hub size, the poster states that the 4-spoke hub is too small while the 5-spoke looks to be correct. Unfortunately no measurements were provided in his post. The real 4-spoke rim has an outside diameter of 306 mm which scales down to 6.37 mm in 1/48 scale. The Ultracast 4-spoke hub measures 6.35 mm. Our 5-spoke hub measures almost identical to the 4-spoke.

Accurate measurements of these rims may be obtained in Chapter 8 of the fairly recently released “Monforton Spitfire Drawings” book.

If anyone has any questions, please feel free to email me at [email protected].

Kevin McLaughlin

Ultracast

[email protected]

www.ultracast.ca

[mackem01]

Troy can I pick your brains once more? As Hannants are out of the Ark, RAF boxing of the Hurricane, is it OK to use the Soviet Air Force boxing as they have plenty of those?

[Test Graham]

Not Troy, but the Russians did not use Mk.Is at all.

[mackem01]

Understand Graham, I will be building a pre-war RAF machine. I just wanted to know if both ARK kits come from the same mould.

[Test Graham]

Not my scale, but the nose and wings would be different. It would be easier to chop down a Mk.II to a Mk.I than vice versa, I've done it before in 1/72, but you are still left with the mods to the wing, plus having to find a new radiator, tailwheel, propeller and spinner. Armoured vs unarmoured windscreen?

[Troy Smith]

Troy can I pick your brains once more? As Hannants are out of the Ark, RAF boxing of the Hurricane, is it OK to use the Soviet Air Force boxing as they have plenty of those?

Ah, yes. Graham is right, the Russian did not have Mk I's, *

but Ark, being Ark.....just reboxed the same mould, it's a Mk I in the box!

The kit does have the MkII type spinner though and Mk II type tailwheel [these could be retorfitted to the MkI, and the Mk I at Hendon has the later tailwheel and Spinner, undoubtedly from it's days at training command]

Be warned, the kit is rough, and does need careful tweaking sanding and scraping as shown in the pics I posted, as modeldad pointed out OOB it's a bit of a shocker!

Note, not all the parts are shown on the instructions, like the cockpit map pocket IIRC.

I've found them on ebay for 7 or 8 pounds, but none listed at the moment.

one just finished for 5.19 and 3 post

I'd wait for a cheaper one than Hannants myself.

Seller Heepdrutt often has them BTW, http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Oxonians-Plastic-Fantastic/_i.html?_trksid=p2045573.c0.m57

You could ask if he's got any, and he does combine postage, last time it was free after the first item.

[* though they did get some Mk I's re-engined to make Mk IIA's though, at least one of these has been salvaged and restored]

cheers

T

[mackem01]

Just resurrecting this thread again as I am curious about cockpit colours. For a '39 Hurricane would it be Aluminium for the metal framing, interior green for wooden frames? Also would the red doped fabric be visible inside the cockpit or would it also be interior green? And finally - what colour for the seat?

[Vesa Jussila]

This might help.

[mackem01]

Thanks Vesa, that will be a great help.

[Basilisk]

On 4/16/2013 at 12:10 AM, Troy Smith said:

some colour pre war pics

this is OP-R

Squadron line up

from the front, note the lights are closer in than a metal wing

HTH

T

I know this is an old post. But unfortunately the third picture of the Hurricanes in colour is no longer in the Etienne du Plessis collection of colour pictures on Flickr.

 

Has someone made copy of it and can share it? Would be a shame if this image is lost.

Thanks, Peter

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, Basilisk said:

I know this is an old post. But unfortunately the third picture of the Hurricanes in colour is no longer in the Etienne du Plessis collection of colour pictures on Flickr.

 

Has someone made copy of it and can share it? Would be a shame if this image is lost.

Thanks, Peter

[Basilisk]

Many thanks Troy

 

Looks like no white serial number on the black wing here.

And could the ailerons be silver on above picture? they do look lighter than the rest of the black wing.

 

Cheers, Peter

[Mr T]

They could easily be in silver as painting them could upset their balance and hence the handling of the aircraft. Apparently a thin coat of camouflage was permissable, but for a full finish then the aileron or elevator had to be re balanced which required removal from the aircraft. This eventually seemed to have happened.