Per-war B & W underside Spitfire w-well colours?

[Rabbit Leader]

All,

Quick question with hopefully a quick answer.

What would be the best colours to paint the w-well colours & internal u/c doors of a per-war black & white under-surfaced Spitfire. There are a couple of old photos around which suggest that the doors at least where painted in corresponding black & white, including wheel hubs. (Ref. Airfix Classic aircraft No. 1 Spitfire - pages 24 & 25).

Any other suggestions or reference referrals would be gratefully appreciated.

Cheers.... Dave.

[Test Graham]

The wheel wells of mine will be Aluminium. For the inside of the doors, I'd look for photos of the one I'll be doing, but my fall-back position is Aluminium.

[Edgar]

When first painted, they were silver doped over a grey primer.

Normally the black/white would have missed out the wells, leaving them silver, but there is film showing a Spitfire with the wells painted black & white, like the wings, so it's impossible to be pedantic.

Door interiors and oleo legs were supposed to be silver, but the same "maybe" applies to them.

Edgar

[Rabbit Leader]

Graham & Edgar,

Many thanks for your quick replies. An aluminium / silver shade with the possibility of either black or white sounds like a better colour probability than Grey Green or some other "Pale Apple" Green shade - which I was also considering.

Cheers from Oz.. Dave

[Jennings Heilig]

Check out this pic. The gear legs, the inside of the gear doors, and the small sliver of the left main gear well you can see just in front of the oil cooler intake all appear to be silver. This is K9962, which was built in May '39. She probably left the factory with black/white on the wings and silver under the rest of the fuselage and stabs. The black/white was probably extended to the lower fuselage and stabs at unit level, but the wings would have remained in their factory finish. Pic was taken prior to 22 Feb 1940, when this aircraft crashed. I'd go with silver...

[Rabbit Leader]

That's a great photo Jennings. Must search a little harder. Looks like silver to me as well. Would be nice to know if a/c produced at the factory after the B&W scheme was introduced (early 1939?) were silver as well, or if the whole damn lot was sprayed in black and white respectively. I'm building two 1/72 kits at the moment (or until something else takes my fancy / interest), so one of each might be a nice change. Can't go wrong that way I suppose.

Cheers. ..Dave.

[Edgar]

The drawings are delightfully vague on this subject; all you read is that internal areas were to be silver, but you have to decide, for yourself, if the wheel wells were considered to be internal areas. There is a clue, since, at the end of the war, internals went over to grey-green, and there's evidence of grey-green wells on XIXs, 22s, etc., so you can go from there.
Incidentally "stabs" is American for "tailplane."
Edgar

[Rabbit Leader]

The drawings are delightfully vague on this subject; all you read is that internal areas were to be silver, but you have to decide, for yourself, if the wheel wells were considered to be internal areas. There is a clue, since, at the end of the war, internals went over to grey-green, and there's evidence of grey-green wells on XIXs, 22s, etc., so you can go from there.

Incidentally "stabs" is American for "tailplane."

Edgar

Edgar, excuse me for sounding a trifle vague, however does this mean that prior to the XIX the wheel wells and doors were painted some other colour to Grey Green? Was it the undersurface colour or silver once again. I understand this is not an exact science, however it sounds like there are many more people here that are more knowledgable than I am on Spit colours. I for one would love to hear more.

Cheers.. Dave.

[Work In Progress]

Yes, that's what it means. We did that subject a couple of days ago here:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234937596-spitfire-xix-wheel-bay-colours/

[Edgar]

Edgar, excuse me for sounding a trifle vague, however does this mean that prior to the XIX the wheel wells and doors were painted some other colour to Grey Green? Was it the undersurface colour or silver once again.

As the beer advert says "probably."

It's rather an association of ideas; there is nothing specific in the first instructional drawing, which only says that interiors were silver, but not whether "interiors" included wheel wells.

The same wording (but with interiors now being designated as green)appears on a later drawing, at a time when late Mark Spitfires were being produced, and they have been seen to have green wells.

Working backwards, if late wells were green, and interiors were green, it could be argued that Supermarine viewed the wells as being part of the interior.

Move back further, to 1938, and, if Supermarine viewed the wells as being part of the interior, and the interior was supposed to be silver, logic (hah!) states that the wells should be silver.

QED, and I'm going for a quiet lie-down.

Edgar

[Flankerman]

I love the ground support equipment in Jenning's photo........

" Chair, upright - Spitfire maintenance for the use of"

Note also the 'reversed' tailwheel - someone was asking about that recently.

.... and the doped patches over the guns .... and the pole mast.

Ken

[Test Graham]

Yes, a very interesting photo with lots of modellable information. Armoured windscreen. What looks like a small anti-glare shield - or is it to deflect oil? Is that an incidence gauge in front of the oil cooler? If not, what? A good view of wear and oil spatter. Squadron badge by the cockpit.

Away from the aircraft, the badges on the overalls are not something commonly seen - 64 Sq B flight? Not going by the first code letter L - LO from the aircraft's history and 602 Sq. Incidentally, it returned to service with 222 sq and crashed after combat 4.9.40.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Graham Boak

[JasonC]

It looks to me like the numbers on the overalls are, in fact, '602'. With an arched base to the '2'.

[Chuck1945]

...

Incidentally "stabs" is American for "tailplane."

Edgar

Only for those Yanks too lazy to write "tailplanes" or" horizontal stabilizers"

[Seahawk]

What looks like a small anti-glare shield - or is it to deflect oil?

Suggest it's the attachment flange for the anti-glare shields which are not themselves present.

[John]

Check out this pic. The gear legs, the inside of the gear doors, and the small sliver of the left main gear well you can see just in front of the oil cooler intake all appear to be silver. This is K9962, which was built in May '39. She probably left the factory with black/white on the wings and silver under the rest of the fuselage and stabs. The black/white was probably extended to the lower fuselage and stabs at unit level, but the wings would have remained in their factory finish. Pic was taken prior to 22 Feb 1940, when this aircraft crashed. I'd go with silver...

I doubt any Spitfires left the factory with black and white wings but the rest in Aluminium after the earliest part of 1939, if at all. I think that scheme generally appeared on previously Aluminium undersides repainted by squadrons or, perhaps, MUs.

John

[Edgar]

I doubt any Spitfires left the factory with black and white wings but the rest in Aluminium after the earliest part of 1939, if at all. I think that scheme generally appeared on previously Aluminium undersides repainted by squadrons or, perhaps, MUs.

They would have been disobeying a direct "request," made in January, 1939, if they hadn't.

The main problem was the ailerons, which were finely balanced, and any extra paint would have affected them, so the units were told not to do it, and leave it for Service Depots. Apparently the Hurricane was more "touchy" than the Spitfire, and the Service Depots weren't allowed to do theirs.

This led to another notification that there would be some silver ailerons under black wings, which had to be accepted, until spare ailerons could be properly painted and balanced, and the "wrong" ones swapped over.

Is that an incidence gauge in front of the oil cooler?

I think it's the rear edge of the u/c leg recess catching the light (as it would, if it was silver.)

Edgar

Edited April 11, 2013 by Edgar

[Steven Eisenman]

Need to see evidence from both sides.

go to this discussion.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234934176-spitfire-mk-1-early-landing-gear-bay-colours/