Malta Spitfire Vs - 1942: Their colours and markings

[Nick Millman]

FWIW Sky Blue is close to Methuen 21 B 3 which is described there as 'bluish grey'. Personally I think it is probably going to about even stevens whether this colour might be called 'sky blue' by some or 'blue grey' by others. Be very interesting to see!

The problem with the RAFM chip sheet is that Sky Blue is adjacent to Azure Blue and Deep Sky which affects its appearance to the eye and tends to make it look greyer than it really is. It would be better if the colour could be isolated when shown.

Nick

[Test Graham]

One point to add to the mix is that tropicalised Spitfires were intended to go to Australia and they did ask for Sky Blue undersides. Aircraft in TLS with Sky Blue undersides were thus going through the factory/MU/wherever. Part of the reason why Supermarine were to plead for standardised production schemes to reduce the problems and costs associated with irregular variations.

[Edgar]

Which raises another intriguing possibility, since 42 of the 48 Spitfires, initially sent to Australia, were "hijacked" on the way, and redirected to the desert. If they had been painted with Sky Blue, there arises the chance that some Spitfire Vc, in the desert, did have Sky Blue undersides.

Edgar

[Super Aereo]

If Ted Hooton stated that Supermarine-built desert camouflage aircraft had Sky Blue undersides and he was right, the possibility of Spitfires in the Western Desert with MAP Sky Blue undersides could even be a likelihood, despite the current lack of photographic evidence.

Just a thought.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Super Aereo

[John]

One point to add to the mix is that tropicalised Spitfires were intended to go to Australia and they did ask for Sky Blue undersides. Aircraft in TLS with Sky Blue undersides were thus going through the factory/MU/wherever. Part of the reason why Supermarine were to plead for standardised production schemes to reduce the problems and costs associated with irregular variations.

Interesting point about the Australian Spitfires. If I'm interpreting this article correctly:

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/raafvcpm_1.htm

it seems that the underside colour is accepted to have been Azure Blue, suggesting the possibility that the request for Sky Blue (or sky blue) was met by applying Azure Blue.

John

[Super Aereo]

This thread from a couple of years back comes to mind: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/77363-spitfire-vc-trop-with-sky-blue-undersurfaces/

[Spitfires Forever]

Thanks Graham. I'd have to wade through Palmieri to check whether it was Prussian blue or ultramarine or both for the hull paints. Just to clarify, my comment was about the effect of adding ultramarine to the Blue-Grey as a mixture rather than comparing it as a separate colour to faded M-485!

Nick

I don't know if this helps or confuses the issue but I will throw in my two cents. My dad was a ship fitter on an LSD during WWII, and before that he worked on "Mighty Mo" in the New York naval shipyards. He said that hull paint was very thick, obviously for a marine environment and meant to hold up to a lot of abuse. Now wouldn't hull paint, even though well thinned add a lot of weight to the aircraft? Could paint of that nature be sprayed effectively? According to my dad the hull paint was brushed on and not sprayed. Just a thought.

cheers

Edited April 23, 2013 by Spitfires Forever

[Test Graham]

Spitfire addict: Yes. It isn't intended to stand up to very low temperatures and high speeds, either. However, in all fairness it wouldn't have been applied as thick as it was to the Mighty Mo.

John: It would be a foolhardy modeller who picked a fight with Peter Malone on the subject of Australian Spitfires, unless he was in a very strong position with his evidence. However, the same can be said of the late Ted Hooton and Spitfires. Perhaps the question that needs clarification is whether Peter even considered that the undersides could have been RAF Sky Blue?

The last example in the article is perhaps the most relevant, as the tail band is considerably lighter than the underside. If the band is RAAF Sky Blue, then the underside cannot be RAF Sky Blue. The two are said to have been effectively identical.

Edgar: I must admit to being drawn to your thoughts on desert campaign Spitfires with light blue bellies. It should be easy enough to identify the individuals and hence their squadron service, and then looking for photos ...but enough is enough!

[Nick Millman]

The last example in the article is perhaps the most relevant, as the tail band is considerably lighter than the underside. If the band is RAAF Sky Blue, then the underside cannot be RAF Sky Blue. The two are said to have been effectively identical.

I'm not so sure about that. Ian K Baker compares RAAF Sky Blue to FS 35526 and his sample is indeed close to that which is darker than MAP Sky Blue. The MAP sample is closest to an obsolete FS 25530, but usually compared to 35550 and Geoff Thomas matches it, most oddly, to 35414!

The RAAF complained about the quality of British paints and painting of Spitfire Vs in early 1945 but acknowledged that the VIII was "much more satisfactory". The letter does suggest that the RAAF were using MAP Sky Blue because it mentions that "a colour like sky blue turns white within a month" in the context of the poor resilience of British paints to exposure and the fact that Foliage Green and Earth Brown (then obsolete) were "pure pigment with an absolute minimum of white pigment for correct matching and have proved to be more than satisfactory in regard to performance and colour retention."

I think this leaves it a little unresolved as to whether the RAAF Sky Blue was formulated to a deeper pigmentation to better withstand the environmental problems.

I have a very good quality close up colour photograph of an RAAF VIII in Foliage Green and the under surface colour is either Azure Blue or a very much deeper (Australian?) version of Sky Blue. The dog's breakfast that Photobucket has become doesn't like my browser so I can't post it here as I usually would but if anyone else would like to volunteer to post it here on my behalf I'll be happy to pass it on via email.

Nick

[Test Graham]

Thanks Nick, but if RAAF Sky Blue was indeed darker then the band still doesn't look right against the underside.

(Totally off topic, because I've lost the link, but I was saddened by your picture of the old Frog Zero. My memory was of a much better kit - which possibly may speak volumes of the Airfix one I would have been comparing it with.)

[gingerbob]

The RAAF complained about the quality of British paints and painting of Spitfire Vs in early 1945 but acknowledged that the VIII was "much more satisfactory".

That's interesting. In addition to possible improvements in paint (etc), it might be significant that the VIII was built exclusively by Supermarine, while for Australian Vs the breakdown is approximately:

Supermarine: up to A58-103 (91 plus?)

Westland: 105 to 162 (about 73, with something like 4 lost en route)

Castle Brom: from 163 (about 92, with around 8 lost en route)

Note, these figures are inexact, but give the rough idea. Note also that the A58 numbers are not indicative of order of production or arrival. I didn't look, but I would expect the Supermarine ones to be mostly built before the others.

I'd be happy to post the pic for you, Nick- I was on the verge of begging to see it anyway!

bob

Edited April 23, 2013 by gingerbob

[Edgar]

This is Nick's photo, which he kindly sent to me, for inclusion. Being unable to resist donning my anorak, note the four-spoke wheel and forward-facing torque link.

%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u79/EdgarBrooks/RAAFSpitfireVIII_zpsb030baac.jpg

Edgar

P.S. Don't ask me why Photobucket suddenly won't allow the photo to appear here; other photos appear on other sites.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Edgar

[Steven Eisenman]

That is a bit blue ...

A bit of blue backed off

Was this not another example..?

[John]

This artcle from Red Roo Models includes a scan of an Australian colour card:

http://www.redroomodels.com/hints-and-tips-foliage-green.php

While acknowledging all caveats around monitors and so forth, it does appear as if RAAF Sky Blue is a somewhat deeper shade than RAF Sky Blue.

Also of interest are the comments immediately above the scan :

"Today, having searched the National Archives of Australia holdings dealing with RAAF wartime correspondence, it is apparent that the RAAF was having considerable trouble in getting what it was asking for with regard to paints and Foliage Green and Cockpit Green in particular. The paint samples submitted by the paint manufacturers were failing and common complaints were that the finish was too glossy, to dull, too dark or broke down too quickly! Despite specification K5 existing there was variation in the finished product."

John

[Nick Millman]

That's interesting. In addition to possible improvements in paint (etc), it might be significant that the VIII was built exclusively by Supermarine, while for Australian Vs the breakdown is approximately:

Supermarine: up to A58-103 (91 plus?)

Westland: 105 to 162 (about 73, with something like 4 lost en route)

Castle Brom: from 163 (about 92, with around 8 lost en route)

Note, these figures are inexact, but give the rough idea. Note also that the A58 numbers are not indicative of order of production or arrival. I didn't look, but I would expect the Supermarine ones to be mostly built before the others.

I'd be happy to post the pic for you, Nick- I was on the verge of begging to see it anyway!

bob

The issues described were paint stripping from metal surfaces during 1943 and early 1944 caused by inferior undercoating or no undercoating. Early Mk Vs had extreme roughness of finish and lack of paint adhesion - "The appearance of the surface suggested both poor dispersion of pigment in the vehicle and application under dusty conditions".

Poor dispersion of pigment could be due to issues in the manufacture of the paint or more probably inadequate preparation prior to spraying. The usual effect is either a lack of opacity or more commonly variegation of colour across the paint surface.

The poor adhesion of paint was attributed to the use of an undercoat unsuitable for aluminium and there were indications that the metal may not have been chemically treated prior to the application of the undercoat. Also a few cases where the paint had been applied directly to the metal without an undercoat.

"The so-called dark colours e.g. green and brown, chalk heavily and change colour very markedly. The reduced shades such as the greys, which were once used for sea camouflage, chalk very heavily."

The chalking of Ocean Grey is generally underestimated, to the point where it began to approach the appearance of Sea Grey Medium.

The same issues were found on Beaufighters during 1943 where the paint defects were even more serious than for the Spitfires, resulting in actual corrosion caused by the failure of the protective scheme to stand up to New Guinea conditions.

Nick

[Test Graham]

Diverting from Spitfires yet staying on the subject of fading paint, if you pop across to 12 O'Clock High you will find colour photos of a Stirling transport in India, supposedly 1944 but I suspect a year later. This should be in Temperate Sea Scheme with Azure Blue underneath, but only the last looks right. The grey is very light - looks more like faded Day Fighter colours to me.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=33706

Edited April 23, 2013 by Graham Boak

[stevehnz]

Graham, I've made a comment on 12oc, but to repeat what I've said here, imho, the DSG is OK, the EDSG is very faded & the AB a bit washed out as well, something to do with the type of pigments in each or manufacture or application, who is to say.

Steve.

[Edgar]

From what I've read, in Kew, Beaufighters and Typhoons (at least) followed the Spitfire into using synthetic paint. Since those two aircraft rarely reached the heights necessary for Spitfire operations, maybe they faded less, here, but, in the conditions of the Far East? The I.C.I. man recommended that aircraft should have covers over them, but that there should be an air gap between them; how often was that achieved in that theatre?

Edgar

[John]

My copy of the book was waiting for me when I got back from Perth this afternoon. I'm looking forward to starting it.

John

[John]

I settled down for a read last night but didn't get too far so my first comment is stylistic rather than based on content - I find the italicised text over the brown text box background extremely difficult to read. It appreciate age plays a part in this but the point of page design is to improve legibility, not reduce it.

John

[Nick Millman]

FWIW I received my copy from Amazon and it appears to be all complete but have not had a chance to read it yet. I did look at the colour chips at the back though and my eyebrows raised immediately at some of the FS595b equivalents given there. Easier if I do a chart than table all the differences here then anyone who wants one to compare can pm me and it will save any wrangling.

Very nice profiles and whilst I appreciate their large size I find having to turn the book sideways to look at them a bit distracting, especially if following captions/text.

Nick

Update for 1 May - comparison chart is completed and now available. Pm me with your email address if you want one.

[Paramedic]

Yeah, got mine too - just have to pick it up at the post office. Great times!

[Aero Imageworks]

I'll give my view on this a/c later, in the meantime read and view the photos here;

http://www.aeroimageworks.com/spitfiresintheantipodesblog_files/weaver1.jpg

http://www.aeroimageworks.com/spitfiresintheantipodesblog_files/weaver2.jpg

http://www.aeroimageworks.com/spitfiresintheantipodesblog_files/weaver3.jpg

According to the author this a/c was loaded aboard USS Wasp with desert scheme of dark earth/middle stone/sky. While on board it may have had a partial repaint with non specular blue grey over the middle stone portions. I agree it was probably in a desert scheme based on other a/c with close serials but the underside was more likely azure blue than sky. Was it partially repainted on board Wasp? There is no definite answer to this its speculation.

It was damaged in combat and the subsequent crash landing on 21 june. As part of the repairs it was partially repainted and the colour is thought to be either extra dark sea grey or some undefined local mix. We don't know what damage was sustained so its difficult to determine what degree of repainting would have been done.

All this is speculative and seems to be heavily influenced by one of the very few colour pics of a Malta Spitfire. I've seen this photo many times before and its always looked to me to be 'colorised' and not a genuine colour image. I say 'colorised' rather than tinted, as it looks like the sort of result you can get using photoshop or similar programs.

Take a look at this bw photo that I've quickly 'colorised' in photoshop (Spitfire Mk VIII, 452 Sqn RAAF, QY-Y, a58-646 at Tarakan in 1945). While its a little simplistic and needs tidying up, you can see how with time and attention to detail a bw image can resemble the sort of 'colour photo' we see here of the Spitfire on the beach. I could be wrong, but I'd really like to see the provenance and detail of the photo. In addition, the use of yellow for the ID letter seems very odd to me as yellow is the colour associated with trainers and thus not the colour you'd expect to see on an operational fighter a/c.

This photo is a key piece of photo evidence and it has clearly influenced the ID letter colour interpretation on many other a/c depicted in the book.

I agree that the serial has been reapplied but when this occurred in unknown. It could have been applied when the a/c was repaired in june but this still doesn't answer the question of what is the upper camo colour/s?

[Test Graham]

Brian Cauchi was not aware of Rae's autobiography when he wrote his book. In it Rae describes, when loading at Glasgow, the pale blue underside of these fighters as being unlike what he was used to. So I think you are correct about the underside, although according to other sources (as referenced) it may have been Sky Blue not Azure Blue.

Can I suggest that you transfer the RAAF colourisation part of the posting to the separate thread on this aircraft?

[Nick Millman]

One of the difficulties in considering the evidence of eyewitnesses on this theme is that the terms azure blue and sky blue (although not originating from the same historical blue hues) have become synonymous in literature whereas MAP used the terms to officially designate two significantly different blues. An eyewitness description of "sky blue" could mean Azure Blue (or even Lt Med Blue) as the observer might not have known the official terms and those colours would look more like a "sky blue" than Sky or Sea Grey Medium. Variants from different factories could just be that rather than one factory applying Azure Blue and another Sky Blue.

The Air Ministry Orders make no mention of Sky Blue and the official use of this colour by the RAF (as opposed to the RAAF) is still tenuous, although it was held in RAF Stores in all paint type and container sizes.

Azure used to be synonymous with just blue, originating from the blue stone lapis lazuli - from which genuine ultramarine pigment was produced. Azure Blue is therefore almost a tautology but is now held by Methuen to be around 23 A 7 (approx FS 35250). Sky blue is held by Methuen to be 22 A 5 (approx FS 15450) "the colour of a sunny, cloudless, summer noonday sky viewed at an angle of 30° to the horizon" (!) with changes in viewing angle resulting in other blues. Both these colours, shown to an ordinary observer unaware of the MAP colour standards, could be described as "sky blue".

Sky Blue pre-dated Azure Blue and whilst I have no evidence for this I suspect that when the latter colour was formulated the Air Ministry scrabbled around for a colour designation that differenced this new, more intense sky blue from the existing Sky Blue. There is some documentary evidence of internal disagreements over just what colours were intended by these names which appear in the Ultra Blue, PRU Blue and Cosmic Blue experiments. These exchanges are baffling and must have been a nightmare for paint suppliers and aircraft manufacturers as officials used colloquial colour descriptions and official designations apparently interchangeably.

Nick