835 NAS Fairey Swordfish Mk.II and Mk.III, HMS Nairana

[John66w]

3 hours ago, Ragtag said:

My condolences John, and my thanks for the additional information also.

 

As it happens these kits are still in the stash as circumstances keep me busy with other things (and of course, the ever-roving eye of the modeller gets me distracted with other projects). I have, however, acquired a Fulmar and a Wildcat VI to represent some other aircraft from Nairana's service.

If you want some more photos I can dig them out for you. The ships bell is at east fortune museum with some other stuff. 

[Ragtag]

That would be great John, pics haven't been that easy to come by

[PoPmodeller]

Hello Ragtag

 

I was surprised when I came across this thread when looking for Swordfish camouflage schemes.

My late father-in-law was a navigator in 835 squadron ’44 – ’45 and was lucky to have been on through the Russian convoys!

I was given this photo which I believe shows an 835 Swordfish overflying HMS Nairana - I hope it got inserted OK?

Did you complete your build?

 

Regards

[ClaudioN]

22 hours ago, PoPmodeller said:

I was given this photo which I believe shows an 835 Swordfish overflying HMS Nairana - I hope it got inserted OK?

Hello PoPmodeller.

thank you, however the photo is not visible in the web page, if that was your intention.

 

[dogsbody]

3 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

Hello PoPmodeller.

thank you, however the photo is not visible in the web page, if that was your intention.

 

 

Yeah. No photo. Are you using a photo hosting site? 

 

 

Chris

[PoPmodeller]

I tried to! It is a dropbox url which I thought I had inserted correctly using the 'insert image from url' button.

 

Is this the correct proceedure or is there another way - all help gratefully received

 

Martin

[Ed Russell]

@PoPmodeller For photo hosting go here..........

 

[PoPmodeller]

I read the post above -ta but could not replicate the ease of inserting photos

This is the link to the image though, perhaps dropbox is not supported? I did delete the text following ,jpg

 

Regards

Martin

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ahvyt53v191pdb5/20200708_183246.jpg

 

[dogsbody]

4 hours ago, PoPmodeller said:

I read the post above -ta but could not replicate the ease of inserting photos

This is the link to the image though, perhaps dropbox is not supported? I did delete the text following ,jpg

 

Regards

Martin

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ahvyt53v191pdb5/20200708_183246.jpg

 

 

Your link doesn't work. It doesn't work when you click on it.

 

Lets try this link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ahvyt53v191pdb5/20200708_183246.jpg

 

 

 

Chris

[PoPmodeller]

Hello Chris. Funny, I have just clicked on my link and it worked for me! Glad that the image is is now available - I must master the art of uploading images correctly.

Is the image of any interest though? My kit does not contain the correct squadron letters, are these available anywhere - I want, if possible, to replicate the plane my father-in-law would have flown in.

 

Regards

 

Martin

[Dave Swindell]

Open image in dropbox

Right click on image, sellect copy image location

paste into your post.

 

[Seahawk]

Thanks to @PoPmodeller for sharing his image.  With over 2000 views of the thread the interest in the topic is evident.  A few observations:

• It's a painting (a rather nice one), quite likely by the same Jock Bevan (835 Sq aircrew) who created the painting in post 1.
• @Graham Boak says of that painting in post 17, "It is perhaps dangerous to expect too much precision from an artist, but they can capture aspects otherwise not commented on."  Same rules apply here: a particular problem can be anachronistic details caused by the artist conflating information from different points in his career - or things he's been told/read/otherwise learned since.  It would be interesting to know when the picture was painted, given the special value the police give to contemporaneous evidence.
• It shows a Swordfish III: 835 Squadron received this mark in July 1944 and retained them until disbandment in March 45.  
• The Y-x code is correct for 835 Sq's Swordfishes in the period from July 44 until early 45, when it changed to Z-x.
• Under magnification the serial appears to be NF37x, possibly NF370.   Serials in the NF37x range are correct for Swordfish III but there is no record of any in that range having served with 835 Sq or any other frontline FAA squadron.  Interestingly NF370 is the serial of a Swordfish III preserved at Duxford at one time and the serial is depicted in blue (whereas one would expect black as for the ROYAL NAVY titles above it) and looks rather crudely applied: has the serial in the painting been changed so that it is at least correct for a Swordfish III, even if not Y-B of 835 Sq?  835 Sq's Swordfish IIIs seem to have come from the NRxxx serial range: I'll fish out some likely examples later.
• Point of interest 1: codes in blue.  This is unusual and it's not even MAP Blue (which would be difficult to tell from Black).  Interesting: not enough countervailing evidence to say it's wrong.
• Point of interest 2: red wheel covers.  Not the sort of thing one makes up.  I would have said "Flight identifier" but not sure this is applicable: Lord Kilbracken's book implies a common pool of Swordfish which they struggled to keep serviceable - attribution to flight sound a nicety in such a context.
• Point of interest 3: the fuselage top decking is shown in dark camouflage, a small piece of evidence against the suggestion elsewhere in this thread from an eye witness that 835's Swordfish were in overall White.
• Point of interest 4: the black undersides to the upper wing.  A measure to reduce reflection/glare seems a satisfactory explanation to me.
• Point of interest 5: the 2 black bands round the rear fuselage.  I don't recall ever having seen such before on a Swordfish though I do recall having seen at least artwork of the same applied to white Sea Hurricane IIc, (and we know that 835's Sea Hurricanes were painted at least predominantly in white).  I had hitherto lazily assumed these were some form of D-Day stripe but territorial overlap between the Arctic and Normandy seems minimal.  I should be very interested if anyone could turn up confirmatory photographic evidence of these stripes on 835 Sq aircraft of either type.

These are just a few observations from me, based on what I know, think I know or can glean from books.  I and, I'm sure, PoPmodeller would welcome further discussion/dispute/debate.

 

 

[ClaudioN]

There used to be an 835 Sqn. web site, a few years ago. I remember seeing the painting of Y-B reproduced there and, IIRC, copies of the painting were offered for sale.

From memory, even in that site there were no actual photos of a Mk. III, and I can say I did search for them, since operational Mk. IIIs are a rather elusive FAA subject.

Yesterday I tried to get back to the site, but it appears to have vanished. 😞

 

[Seahawk]

22 hours ago, Seahawk said:

• Point of interest 5: the 2 black bands round the rear fuselage.  I don't recall ever having seen such before on a Swordfish though I do recall having seen at least artwork of the same applied to white Sea Hurricane IIc, (and we know that 835's Sea Hurricanes were painted at least predominantly in white).  I had hitherto lazily assumed these were some form of D-Day stripe but geographical overlap between the Arctic and Normandy seems minimal.  I should be very interested if anyone could turn up confirmatory photographic evidence of these stripes on 835 Sq aircraft of either type.

I have now found a photo of a white 835 Sq Sea Hurricane IIc with the black stripes, underwing as well as on the fuselage, but it is not mine to share, even if I knew how to.  The idea of 835's Sea Hurricanes carrying pukka invasion stripes is in fact quite reasonable.  Her parent ship Nairana returned to the Clyde on 3/6/44 before sailing again for Gibraltar on 12/6/44, so she would have been passing not too far from the invasion area in the right timeframe.  835 did not receive Swordfish IIIs until July (18 July to judge from Sturtivant).  Nairana and 835 did one more run to Gibraltar after that (sailed 24/8/44 with convoy KMF34, left Gibraltar 10/9/44 with return convoy MKF34, arrived Clyde for repairs 14/9/44.  So it is possible that 835's Swordfish IIIs carried invasion stripes before Nairana and 835 were reassigned to the Arctic convoys but July/August feels to me a bit late in the day to be applying invasion stripes to new airframes, especially when the likelihood of encountering other aircraft was quite low.

 

If the painting is accurate it would appear to depict a timeframe between 18/7/44 (first Swordfish III received) and 14/9/44 (end of Nairana's convoy runs through the Bay of Biscay).  Or the artist might have been remembering markings he'd seen on 835's Swordfish IIs.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Seahawk

[ClaudioN]

15 hours ago, Seahawk said:

I have now found a photo of a white 835 Sq Sea Hurricane IIc with the black stripes, underwing as well as on the fuselage, but it is not mine to share, even if I knew how to.  The idea of 835's Sea Hurricanes carrying pukka invasion stripes is in fact quite reasonable. 

There seem to be black underwing stripes also in the photo of NF672 'NIKKI' after a barrier crash. The incident occurred on 27 June 1944, so in that case the stripes seem reasonable. The change to a single-letter carrier code is a bit later and I agree the application of 'invasion' stripes on newly delivered Swordfish Mk.IIIs seems slightly odd.

 

[JWM]

14 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

I agree the application of 'invasion' stripes on newly delivered Swordfish Mk.IIIs seems slightly odd.

On the other hand during Market Garden operation (September '44) the invasion strips were overpainted only from top, not from bottom sides of airplanes. It means that likely for fast identification by AA they retained. So only  the photos would solve the question how it was those days with freshly delivered machines. Or maybe expert knows it? Rules, orders, dates?

Cheers

J-W

[Graham Boak]

The upper stripes were generally removed in July, if not sooner (for example Austers).  By September the underwing ones had gone too., then all.  However the fuselage stripes were returned on the medium bombers and transports because of Friendly flak.  The FAA were understandably a little delayed in catching up with these matters, at least on the carriers.

[Seahawk]

22 hours ago, Seahawk said:

• Under magnification the serial appears to be NF37x, possibly NF370.   Serials in the NF37x range are correct for Swordfish III but there is no record of any in that range having served with 835 Sq or any other frontline FAA squadron.  Interestingly NF370 is the serial of a Swordfish III preserved at Duxford at one time and the serial is depicted in blue (whereas one would expect black as for the ROYAL NAVY titles above it) and looks rather crudely applied: has the serial in the painting been changed so that it is at least correct for a Swordfish III, even if not Y-B of 835 Sq?  835 Sq's Swordfish IIIs seem to have come from the NRxxx serial range: I'll fish out some likely examples later.

Looking through Sturtivant's FAA Aircraft 1939-45 aircraft NR859 is attested as wearing code "YB".  It arrived on the squadron with the initial delivery on 18/7/44 (serving initially as "C" with  NR882 as "B") and served with it until 17/2/45, only 6 weeks before the squadron disbanded.

 

Sturtivant's collective oeuvre really is a magnificent resource when he had access to the right data and we owe him and his co-workers an enormous debt.  From the work above it's possible to work out that 835 received 7 Swordfish III at Burscough on 18/7/44, with the remaining 5 following on 24/7/44 and 4 more (including 2 attrition replacements) on 22/8/44 when it was decided to augment the Swordfish complement.

[PoPmodeller]

Firstly, thank you all for the fascinating insights and comments my last post and photo generated. I'm now after some more help.

 

I appreciate that this thread is swordfish focused, however I am also interested in the 835 Martlets that flew from HMS Nairana. Looking at plate 37 in the E E Barringer book, the Wildcat (Martlet) depicted would imply a MK IV? It is difficult to determine what camouflage scheme is used and whether it is the temperate sea scheme or the lend lease (ANA) scheme? have anyone any ideas?

 

http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resource.php?r=camo_rnfaa#tempsea2 

 

Also is the 'N' shown on the plane's fuselage the squadron identifier for the Martlets and are there records of plane serial numbers, as I want to replicate the correct identifiers for both a Swordfish and Martlet?

 

Who would you recommend I contact ref getting the correct decals made?

 

Any help and ideas greatfully welcomed.

 

Martin

[ClaudioN]

From Sturtivant, Wildcat Mk. VIs were received in late 1944. I found:

JV702:YD

JV712:YV

JV718:YW

JV748:YZ

I do not have Barringer's book, thus I do not know which image you refer to. The Mk. IV and Mk. VI were both powered by a Wright Cyclone R-1820, so if what you have is a partial view you might mistake them. The Mk. VI is the latest model with the taller fin.

No idea about camouflage. The Mk. VI was the FM-2 Wildcat produced by GM Eastern Aircraft Division and this manufacturer is reported to have been using substitute ANA colours, if I remember correctly.

[PoPmodeller]

Hello ClaudioN

 

This is the photo I was refering to-

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wgo0r0oqkatjc10/2020-10-24 14.04.59.jpg

 

Rgds

 

Martin

[occa]

Here's that painting from above in case.

For embedding right click the image and select 'Copy Image Location'

Then just paste the link ... the image will appear by itself after a second or two

 

[PoPmodeller]

The link should take you to the photo of a Wildcat  from E E Barringer's book

[occa]

2 minutes ago, PoPmodeller said:

The link should take you to the photo of a Wildcat  from E E Barringer's book

 

[Dave Swindell]

That's a Wildcat VI (FM-2 ), tall fin/rudder and exhaust cutouts just above the wing leading edge. 

All Wildcat VI's in camo finish (ie not overall gloss sea blue) were finished in ANA equivalent paints.